More Q's regarding EDC guns
This is a discussion on More Q's regarding EDC guns within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know that this topic gets re and re hashed but I've done my searches of the archives and still don't have definitive answers. Hopefully ...
July 2nd, 2009 10:14 AM
More Q's regarding EDC guns
I know that this topic gets re and re hashed but I've done my searches of the archives and still don't have definitive answers. Hopefully some of y'all can help.
So, back in Jan, I bought a M&P Full Size 9mm mostly for home defense/commies and got the CCW while I was at it as it makes life much easier as far as transport etc. But, since then I've been reading all the CCW propaganda and am interested in carrying more often, possibly every day but I'm in and out of crime zones, er, ah, pistol-free zones all day for work and if I did get made at work it would be devastating.
Anyway, I've been carrying my M&P 9 more and more often in a supertuck holster and so long as I'm wearing relatively loose shirts, it doesn't print much unless I bend over (haven't tried it tucked yet - no need to tuck unless I'm at work and I'm too scared to get outed) but, it's quite heavy. I haven't weighed it but looking at the specs, it's around 2 lbs loaded. So, I'm looking at other guns for EDC. My thoughts so far are:
M&P 9c at about 1.7 lbs loaded - I like that it's an M&P and can use my supertuck holster and the capacity. I don't like that it's hardly lighter than the FS 9 that I sometimes cary now. I really like the full sized version so think that having her little sister on my hip might be a good idea.
Kahr CW9 at about 1.2 lbs - I like that it seems to be designed as a civilian carry gun i.e. no accessory rails, smooth corners etc,. Would need a new holster though. Would consider the PM9 too although that puppy's so precious (i.e. it's expensive).
Kel-tec PF-9 at about 1.1 lbs - Price is great, don't care for the rails etc. unlike the Kahr.
So for those of you who've carried these or similar arms, I'd like your thoughts on the following:
Does the 1/2lb+ difference make that big a difference in EDC? Things I'm thinking are like pulling your pants down from the weight etc.
Does the single vs. double stack make the gun significantly more comfortable (thinness)? Do they print significantly less?
I'm also thinking about a pocket gun e.g. P3AT or LCP instead of any of the above 9mm with the thought that I'll cary more often as it would be easy to lock up with the pocket holster. (Long term I'd like to have both a small 9mm for CCW and a .380).
Let's say, totally hypothetically of course, that my wife freaks when I buy another gun and it takes a year or more before I can complete the collection. Would you go for the smaller 9mm or the pocket gun first?
One final weird question: I'm currently losing weight and will be down by 10lbs in a month or two and 20lbs within 5 months which will put me at about a 32 to 34" waist. Does this make concealing easier or harder?
Thanks for your thoughts.
July 2nd, 2009 10:32 AM
Many people find the single stack guns, as well as 9mm/ 40 to be significantly more comfortable. I compared my MK9 to my buddies Glock 30...huge difference if you ask me.
The weight issue is magnified for pocket carry. If you are doing IWB, half a pound could be nominal.
Keltecs are great, but I would at least shoot a Kahr if you get a chance. The similar sized guns, keltec or ruger lcp, don't come close in terms of the trigger. The CW has the elite trigger on all models I believe and it is smooth. Worth the cost increased compared to the others.
July 2nd, 2009 10:35 AM
+1 on Blakestr
Weight - What Blakestr said. Other than that, weight isn't a factor in concealability, per se. But there's an awkwardness that comes with a very heavy gun. A few small ounces this way or that way no big deal. Make sure you have a good belt if you carry.
Single VS Double stack - There is no doubt whatsoever that a smaller gun hides away better than a bigger gun; a thinner gun than a thicker gun. Anything is doable if you are disciplined and dedicated and buy the right gear and alter the way you dress but even then smaller will always hide better.
Ever notice the common theme in the "IWB is too uncomfortable" threads? All those guys are wearing double stacks and the single-stack crowd can't figure out why in the world they don't like to carry IWB. Watch the threads of all the people who are giving up, can't figure out how to carry properly, can't figure out how to negotiate the latrine, can't carry IWB (yada yada) and see if there isn't a pattern there. I've sure noticed.
Not that the Glock 23 and similar handguns aren't totally primo ... just that it's easier to start out with a Kahr or PPS or small 1911 and later when your habits are well formed you can transition into a beefier roscoe. But if you start out with a double-stack then I see a pocket gun becoming the solution to some inevitable difficulties that a beginning permit holder deals with day after day because of changing seasons and changing dress [changing waistline also]. The single stack negotiates these things with greater ease.
' nuff said ... always carry never tell. Shoot safe!
July 2nd, 2009 11:06 AM
The Kahr P9/CW9 is one of the most natural feeling handguns I have ever felt. It is very slim and easy to conceal. I like the PM9 a lot. However your argument for the Compact M&P makes the most sense.
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July 2nd, 2009 11:46 AM
Thanks. I think if I had it to do over again, I'd probably start out with a single stack or the M&P9c. Problem is when you're starting out you don't know what you don't know.
Originally Posted by lance22
In all honesty, I had no intention of EDC when I picked up the full size 9. I was just happy that after 11 years of marriage my wife finally turned the corner and agreed to us buying a gun - gotta strike while the iron is hot you know. I got the CPL because I'm all for having extra "privileges" but didn't get interested in EDC until I took the course and the instructor (Detroit cop) encouraged everyone there to cary as often as possible. After that I started doing more and more research on CCW and came to the conclusion that it might be a good idea.
Again ideally, I'd have the M&P FS9, something like the CW or PM9 and a .380 pocket gun. The pocket gun would make it feasible to cary while working because stowing the rig would be much faster which is an issue to me as I'd have to do it constantly throughout the day.
I have found a place which rents Kahrs not too far from me so I'll have to go give them a shot sometime soon. I'm still waffling on whether it should be pocket first then single stack and even on the single stack thing I'm still drawn to the M&P9c as I like my FS so much. From the practical standpoint it has the advantage of sharing parts with my FS including the holster but at the end of the day, it's still a thick double stack.
Keep em coming please, this is definitely enlightening.
July 2nd, 2009 12:05 PM
My employer has a no-guns policy. My thoughts are that it is easier to find a new job than to rise from the grave.
I use a Smartcarry, and carry a Glock 26, plus a spare 15-round mag.
No one has ever noticed...not even when I carried the larger Glock 19 for 18 months.
Give this holster a try - lots of info here and elsewhere. Just do a search. No need to limit yourself to a pocket gun or a limited capacity single-stack, IMHO.
Do a search on Kahr as well - their polymer guns can be problematic. I had bad experiences with 3 of them, and would never consider them again.
Good luck in your search!
July 2nd, 2009 12:14 PM
Pocket carry or IWB is a snap with the p3at, LCP, pf-9. I personally pocket carry a kel-tec p-11. It fit's my hand better. I pocket carry one of the above or a S&W 642. I have and LOVE a kahr cw9 but it has to ride in a IWB holster of some kind. It out shoots all of the above easily. I carry it sometimes. But just prefer pocket carry. Find a range and rent and shoot all of the above plus a couple other kahr's if you can find them. What's good for one may not work for someone else.
Also when bending - bend with knees, not with waist. Lower yourself down by bending your knees. Try to keep your waist and hips vertical. It takes some getting used too but it will not only help cure your printing problem with bending over, it will also improve your back pains.
Change We Can Believe In 01.20.13 Gun Control is Being Able to Hit Your Target.
July 2nd, 2009 12:44 PM
It's not my employer that's the problem though. I'm in an out of hospitals every day and they're "pistol free zones" by law. If I got caught, my right to cary everywhere else would indeed be infringed upon!
Originally Posted by 10thmtn
That and I live in SE Michigan, rising from the grave might actually be easier than finding a job!
July 2nd, 2009 12:49 PM
I carry a Beretta Tomcat in my back pocket in a wallet type holster.
Just curious what you all carry the S&W 642 in. I have a High Noon pocket holster for it but don't really like it. I'd prefer a wallet type for it too. Anyting like that?
July 2nd, 2009 01:19 PM
I'm guessing this was the earlier series of Kahr's PM series versus later...
Originally Posted by 10thmtn
I originally was planning on getting a PM9 but the dealer I went to only had the MK9 and I didn't want to wait 2 months for him to restock...he gave it to me at the same price which I thought was a good deal for a stainless steel gun.
Give the metal kahr's a look-see...don't rule them out. Per Kahr's website specs, the MK9 weighs 24 oz but I find the added weight gives it some "heft" and I can control it very easily so one-handed doubletaps become second-nature. I have pocket carried this gun, all you need is a belt, period...if you have a $12 Uncle Mike's pocket holster, it just looks like a wallet in your pocket if it ever does print.
Whatever you decide on, consider Appendix carry. I originally hated the idea because I carry condition 1, and well, quite frankly, I worried I'd shoot my balls off one day. Once I saw the Qwikclip from Crossbreed with its solid kydex trigger guard, I knew it would be practically impossible to do so. But there are many advantages to this form of concealed carry and I don't see it advocated enough, to each his own. I also think it allows you to carry a heavier "pocket' gun which nullifies any weight issues, the only thing you need is a slim, singlestack gun.
The notion of EDC is something that really appealed to me...I never was a boyscout but I always appreciated the "always be prepared" mentality.
HERE is one of the first and is still very impressive video's I watched on the EDC concept. This guy has a whole bunch of stuff that I probably won't carry but I did start carrying a few things because of this video...
July 2nd, 2009 02:25 PM
With CC it's sometimes a compromise between capacity and size. A larger gun is going to print more and vise versa. However the smaller gun will typically carry less ammo. You will find that if you carry a gun that you worry will print excessively, you're less likely to carry it. So a high capacity gun you leave at home won't do you as much good as a single column gun you always carry.
I've experimented with many different gun/holster combos including the S&W M&Pc. The one I felt most comfortable with was the S&W 3913 in a HBE Com III IWB holster. Granted it only holds 9 fully loaded, but I carry in the 5 o'clock position and it is hardly noticible even when I bend over. (I've asked friends if they can see it.)
I usually wear nothing more than a loose fitting T-shirt and have never had a problem. Weight has never been a issue due to the gun's aluminum frame. It has a very thin profile and a bobbed hammer.
As far as your own weight, I've found that a small waist makes it easier to conceal. In my younger days I did a lot of weight lifting. This broadens your shoulders, chest and back. If your upper torso is
much larger than your waist, anything you wear will be very loose around your waist and conceal better. You might even consider a cross draw holster that can be worn in the 11-11:30 position. You wouldn't have to worry about printing, but you will get jabbed in the gut when you bend which is why I gave up on that location. If possible, wear dark clothing as it reveals less detail and of course, keep it loose fitting. If ammo is a concern, carry an extra mag or 2.
"First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
Edge of Darkness
July 2nd, 2009 02:36 PM
In your situation, I'd get the KelTec P-3AT and a pocket holster. The mouse gun will give you the protection you need at work and will never be seen...you already have a great car/home/outside of work gun.
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
July 2nd, 2009 02:42 PM
Some of us "big" guys could carry a refrigerator concealed if we had the right holster, but, with that said, even though I carry a Sig 220 some of the time, I much prefer carrying my Sig 232. The 232 has CTG and they really fit my hand better than any gun I've tried. Accuracy is excellent and I carry Buffalo Bore Ammo so I really don't feel under powered at all. Carrying is a compromise and no matter what you end up with there will be trade offs in speed of accessing your gun or in firepower or in caliber. Find the trade offs you can live with and practice, practice, practice.
Have Gun ~ Will Carry
July 2nd, 2009 03:59 PM
The weight will make a difference. The 5 ounce difference between my G30 and my XD45 Compact is quite noticeable after a few hours. I find the Glock to be much more comfortable to carry. I have a good gun belt I use and I have the same holster for each one.
July 2nd, 2009 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Cycler
Understand your dilemma...life is full of tough choices.
No one will ever detect a gun in a Smartcarry - unless you wear spandex. Only thing that would stop you is a metal detector. (Note - This is just an observation. I am not advocating anyone break the law. This is not legal advice. I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...blah blah blah...)
Pocket carry is an option, but not a panacea. I pocket-carried a PM9 for several years, and some pants pockets are shallow enough that the grip could be seen by someone standing behind me. Had to keep my jacket on - bummer.
Having done both, I like Smartcarry better. No worries about printing, and allows me to carry a much better gun.
Again, best of luck in your search.
Blakestr - Yes, early P9 and PM9 with numerous issues. Got a refund on the P9, and Kahr finally replaced my (early) PM9 with a newer, late-version PM9. The newer PM9 has fired fine, but will not tolerate being racked manually (such as to clear a dud round) without jamming JHP ammo nose-down into the feed ramp. This is not acceptable to me, so I am in the process of selling it, and have standardized on Glocks (19 and 26).
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