This is a discussion on Tactical Arms - 1911 within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by doctruptwn The host is obviously an idiot, and that shows it. The max range on a 1911 is 50 yards. The only ...
"I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."
~ Massad Ayoob
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Diligentia Vis Celeritas"
I'd believe Larry Vickers on a TV show before I'd believe someone on a internet forum. He is the real deal. He's used a 1911 for what JMB intended it for. He missed a 100 yard shot with a pistol...the guy with him made the shot with another 1911...which was also Larrys 1911. He missed a bit to the left of the target @ 100 yards. I had the episode DVRed...in the replay you can actually see the round going downrange.
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
"Ok, wait a minute. If your gun won't function without special attention, you don't need to be carrying that gun in the first place."
First of all...let's get the fallacy out of the way first. Just FYI
The 1911 Government Model "as originally fit and constructed"
was extensively tested years later for use by the U.S. Military to be able to feed and function minus all lubrication in extreme sub-freezing Arctic temperatures as well as...dusty/sandy Desert conditions.
That would be stripped of all traces of internal lubrication and also completely stripped of all traces of lubrication on the frame and slide rails.
In short...not even any remaining trace residue of oil or grease in any location on the pistol.
Ideally the Colt 1911 should run perfectly when it is bone dry and doing that will not cause any damage to the pistol.
In order to test that:
In the past I have run three of my personal Colt pistols reassembled after being completely disassembled and sprayed with contact cleaner "spray solvent degreaser" in order to remove all traces and vestiges of lubrication and they run/function/operate/feed/eject just fine.
My Colt Combat Commander has pretty close frame/slide rail tolerance and it still runs fine completely dry.
So......the Colt 1911 Does Not "require special attention" regarding lubrication.
Some of the Colt clones are factory ill~fit and they are always a crap-shoot regarding function and....(of course) some of the extremely high dollar 1911s are beautifully fit with very tight accuracy and target tolerances and they should be properly but, sparingly lubricated with a high quality lube.
I don't disagree with you. The clip posted in this forum doesn't show the entire show that was on the Sportsmans Channel.
On the tv show was where the claims were made that if a person didn't know what certain parts of the gun were, or know how to keep the gun properly oiled, ect that they should not be using a 1911.
Much to the point you were making. GI's for years have carried the 1911 without incident. Most of those GI's were not "gun" guys and were able to carry and use them effectively. Lots of times in less than ideal environments.
I don't have any problems running my Dan Wesson, and don't do anything different to it than the rest of my guns as far as lubrication, or whatever. And yea, with the right ammo, it will run even dry and dirty.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
Flamesuits, get-cha' flamesuits!
Shooting handguns offhand at 100 yards is something you need to work on to be proficient at. I used to shoot my G19 at 100 yards pretty frequently before ammo prices went through the roof. With a makeshift rest, you can put 2/3 of a mag into a paper plate at 100. Offhand is still doable, albeit a little tougher.
Wow. There is much that is inexcusably wrong here, so I'll take it one bit of wrongness at a time:
1. Larry Vickers and the 1911:
Mr. Vickers is an award winning 1911 pistol smith who has the unique distinction of being one of the individuals most intimately familiar with the weapon as both a builder, armorer, and operator of the platform under the most demanding operational conditions imaginable. As such it would be wise to listen to the man when he says something about the 1911.
2. "Constantly miss the target":
I've personally watched Mr. Vickers shoot at distances greater than 100 yards with a 1911 and hit. I've done the same thing myself. With 230 grain hardball ammo you're doing a large amount of guessing on the sight picture required to make the hit. I'd say 8 out of 10 times he'll make that shot...which is a hell of a lot better than I can say for most people. He was one of the top firearms trainers for Delta and he has a bunch of shooting championships to his credit. It's the height of absurdity to assert that the man can't shoot. He HIT the target all the way out to 100 yards. When I see someone's comparable record of operational use of a firearm and their comparable list of championships, I'll listen to their criticisms of his shooting abilities. Until then....
3. "The 1911 doesn't require anything special"
Yes, it does. If you knew the platform better you'd understand that.
If you intend to fire any significant amount of ammunition out of a 1911, you have the best chance of success if the weapon is generously lubricated. 3 drops of lube is not how a 1911 likes to run. You will not survive a 5 day, 3,000 round course with a 1911 by "sparingly" lubricating the weapon.
Generous lubrication gives the highest chance of the weapon functioning properly....thus those who depend on the weapon for saving their behinds would do well to ensure that the weapon is generously lubricated.
5. In general:
It would be wise to find out some information on individuals before making blanket dismissals of their opinion or just throwing out insults. There are a lot of idiots on TV....but Mr. Vickers is one of the people who actually has valid knowledge...as do the other co-hosts, both of which have won awards for valor while serving in Tier 1 units.
Oh...OK. New forum rules.
Nobody is allowed to disagree with Larry Vickers or voice any opinion that differs (in any way) from the opinion of Larry Vickers.
Even though Larry Vickers states that anybody that wants to rely on any 1911 format pistol that is smaller than a full size 1911 should shop for a different pistol.
I'm now going to slag down my Colt Combat Commander with an Oxy-Acetylene torch.
Even though (to date) it's been 100% reliable and it will even run dry of lube - now that Larry Vickers sez that I can't trust it anymore...it honestly needs to go into the trash bin.
OK I'm coming across as a smart-azz here and so I should watch what comes out of my own mouth but, on the flip side of the coin when folks get on TV and make blanket statements that are just patently untrue....they should expect some vocal backlash.
Certainly I have the utmost respect for Vickers and his extensive military and firearms background but stating that everybody who is looking for a reliable firearm that is 1911 patterned should shop for something else unless they buy a full size 1911 is a modestly hog-washish statement.
For sure DETONICS manufactured a radically chopped bushing-less 1911 and it fed and functioned reliably.
Detonics (for sure) had their problems but, those problems were not related to how their chopped 1911 fed and functioned.
Wouldn't all of the makers of "compact" 1911 pistols just stop making them if they were all being totally swamped with multitudes of thousands of "returned for repair" handguns that were consistently unreliable?
Obviously the vast majority of them are functioning just fine.
ALSO & of course "ideally" every firearm should be properly lubricated and of course a "bone dry" 1911 will not go anywhere near 3,000 rounds and function flawlessly.
I properly lubricate my own 1911 firearms.
I also properly lubricated my Colt Officers model and it always functioned flawlessly even though (I guess) it should not have been been reliable AT ALL since it was not a full size 1911.
I guess I just bought a fluke that happened to function perfectly.
People can disagree with whatever they like....but that doesn't change reality.
The simple truth is that the most reliable 1911 configuration is the 5" gun in .45 ACP. If folks are willing to accept the greater risk of using a compact 1911 despite the legendary issues they've had, well...it's on them.
My great grandmother dipped snuff, smoked, and ate lots of lard into her 90's...and she lived to be 99, in full control of her mental faculties completely independent.Even though (to date) it's been 100% reliable and it will even run dry of lube - now that Larry Vickers sez that I can't trust it anymore...it honestly needs to go into the trash bin.
...but that doesn't mean that those cardiologists are all full of crap. I won't be repeating her lifestyle.
So....in other words your definition of "reality" regarding the 1911 is whatever Larry Vickers says about the 1911?
That's fine with me.
I'll base my reality on my own actual experiences with the handgun.
I am happy that they showed the real footage, and didn't edit in a retake of him hitting the target just to make sure he looks good.
Glock 26 w/ CTAC IWB
"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far" - Theodore Roosevelt
I should make a clarification addition here.
For the vast majority of folks that carry a full size 1911 or...a more compact 1911 - their "reality" is not using that firearm defensively by having to go out and dispatch 3,000 bad guys in the desert with an improperly lubricated firearm.
Their reality is probably much closer to blowing off a couple or few hundred rounds in a week or possibly a month - then they go home and they clean and re-lubricate their firearm...hopefully...properly and then they are basically "good to go" again.
Every day is not a firearm torture or endurance test.
So if a person carries and shoots that firearm in the world of their personal reality and they have absolutely no function related issues at all with that handgun...then that firearm is functionally perfect for their personal reality and their individual life situation.
Would a Colt New Agent be as functionally reliable as a full size 1911 in Iraq? For sure probably not.
Compact and all "less than full size" 1911 pattern pistols have certain physical characteristics and idiosyncrasies that could possibly make them less reliable than a full weight slabsides.
I would never argue that fact.
The feed angle is a bit steeper. There is less slide mass which equals less slide energy for the feed.
It is critical that everything be much more precisely and properly fit for a diminutive 1911 to be able to function with good reliability.
The slide/frame rails need to be smooth.
Proper extractor tension is incredibly more important.
The breech face needs to be really smooth.
High quality magazines are a must.
A properly fit and throated barrel sure helps.
Proper magazine tension is far more critical especially to reliably feed the top cartridges.
Getting rid of the barrel bushing and opting for a bushingless barrel also helps.
Sticking with a brand of ammo that has a bullet nose configuration that easily chambers and has been tested for reliability in that particular carry handgun sure helps immensely.
So I absolutely agree that chopped 1911s are somewhat inherently more physically disadvantaged especially if they are just tossed together as parts rather than being properly fit/built.
They ARE much less tolerant of being poorly built.
My point is that if everything is done right on the smaller 1911s then there is no logical reason why they cannot be perfectly reliable and suitable for a person that wants to carry one for the purpose of self-defense.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
First, I admit I know squat about 1911s. I don't own one and might shot a mag full through one during my adult life. With that said I can only offer what I have seen.
The 1911 platform is slowly disappearing from IDPA matches and the reason is lack of reliability. Before you guys get you underbritches in a wad, allow me to continue. My club shoots at least 2 matches a month that take upward of 120 rounds fired per match. We also have drills nights where your ammo count can go as high as 250 rounds. If you add to that a tactical rifle match where transition stages are designed, you can shoot close to 700 rounds on the move, on you back, etc. As I said before, less and less people are shooting 1911s because of reliability problems: Mags, extractors and what nots and this from very expensive guns. Why? Is the 1911 such a crappy firearm? If so, why such a reputation in the battlefield? There is something missing in the equation.
Some months back what appears to be the answer was printed in an article by Louis Awerbuck (SWAT Magazine) and it makes all the sense in the world, at least to me. The 1911 as J. M. Browning designed is a fine weapon. Again, he 1911 as J. M. Browning designed is a fine weapon... but we are producing mostly 1911s that are not what JMB designed but accurized versions of the old warhorse which makes them unreliable. The GI version of the 1911 rattles like a cheap maraca? Well, there is a reason for it: Dirt will not be such an important factor in the field that way. Why bushings if the Mod 1 Mark 0 version of the 1911 did not have it? Full length rods anybody? Now, Like I said I am no expert, but I doubt that JMB was having a bad day and designed a bad firearm. If anything we know he was a genius so why screw with his design?
So I humbly submit that it is not the gun or the designer but the love we have for tinkering with something to death that made the 1911 less reliable than originally designed.
Or to put it bluntly, who knows more about 1911s You or JMB?
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
But, I do agree with you that there is little standardization with today's 1911 platform.
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Diligentia Vis Celeritas"