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Tactical Arms - 1911

7K views 42 replies 22 participants last post by  jonconsiglio 
#1 ·
Ok, I am sitting here watching the show Tactical Arms on the sportsman channel.

It is a show that I have watched a few times before, but didn't think much about it. For one thing, I just can't get over the hosts of the show and how it relates to every day actions. Well tonight they are featuring the 1911. For the first half or so of the show it was ok, but then they get to the point where they are talking about care a maintanence of the gun. Well the main host of the show was saying that if you didn't know what certain parts of the gun were or if you didn't know where to lubricate the gun, and that the gun did require special lubrication, that you probably didn't need to be carrying the gun.

Ok, wait a minute. If your gun won't function without special attention, you don't need to be carrying that gun in the first place.

Well shortly after that they were shooting the gun and showing the effective range. Well they got out to 100 yds, and the numb nuts that was saying whether or not you should be actually be using the gun was missing the target all together at 100 yds.

Yea that is pretty far for most pistols but, that just ruined it all for me. 1 if you have to baby a gun, get a different one, 2 if you saying whether or not you should be using one, don't put yourself on tv with the gun and consistantly miss the target.
 
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#4 ·
Most pistols have a maximum effective range of 50 yards,even tho you can hit a target at 100 yards,the sight radius is pretty short and it don't take much to miss,If I'm shooting past 50 yards I hope I got my carbine
 
#6 ·
The host is obviously an idiot, and that shows it. The max range on a 1911 is 50 yards. The only special lube it needs is motor oil. Now you can put fancy grease on it and if your someplace where it's -50 degrees then you want to use a really light oil. But other than that it doesn't require anything special.
 
#16 ·
They were doing a walkback drill at predetermined 25-yard increments. You do know what a walkback drill is, right?

The best lubricant for a firearm is one that is made specifically for firearms.
 
#10 ·
Yep, that dang 1911... unreliable piece of junk through 75 years of US military service. Just can't trust it in battlefield conditions. And don't those wacky kids in the MEU(SOC) know it's not a good gun???
 
#13 ·
Certain posters in this thread have just lost all credibility with many knowledgable people, by referring to Larry Vickers as "numbnuts" and an "idiot".

Do you people have any friggin' clue who he is? I'll give you a few clues: Richard Heinie refers to Vickers as the best 1911 pistolsmith in the world, himself included; Vickers is a retired MSG from Delta; and Vickers is one of the founders of IDPA.
 
#19 ·
I'd believe Larry Vickers on a TV show before I'd believe someone on a internet forum. He is the real deal. He's used a 1911 for what JMB intended it for. He missed a 100 yard shot with a pistol...the guy with him made the shot with another 1911...which was also Larrys 1911. He missed a bit to the left of the target @ 100 yards. I had the episode DVRed...in the replay you can actually see the round going downrange.
 
#20 ·
"Ok, wait a minute. If your gun won't function without special attention, you don't need to be carrying that gun in the first place."

First of all...let's get the fallacy out of the way first. Just FYI

The 1911 Government Model "as originally fit and constructed"
was extensively tested years later for use by the U.S. Military to be able to feed and function minus all lubrication in extreme sub-freezing Arctic temperatures as well as...dusty/sandy Desert conditions.

That would be stripped of all traces of internal lubrication and also completely stripped of all traces of lubrication on the frame and slide rails.
In short...not even any remaining trace residue of oil or grease in any location on the pistol.

Ideally the Colt 1911 should run perfectly when it is bone dry and doing that will not cause any damage to the pistol.

In order to test that:
In the past I have run three of my personal Colt pistols reassembled after being completely disassembled and sprayed with contact cleaner "spray solvent degreaser" in order to remove all traces and vestiges of lubrication and they run/function/operate/feed/eject just fine.

My Colt Combat Commander has pretty close frame/slide rail tolerance and it still runs fine completely dry.

So......the Colt 1911 Does Not "require special attention" regarding lubrication.

Some of the Colt clones are factory ill~fit and they are always a crap-shoot regarding function and....(of course) some of the extremely high dollar 1911s are beautifully fit with very tight accuracy and target tolerances and they should be properly but, sparingly lubricated with a high quality lube.
 
#21 ·
QKShooter,

I don't disagree with you. The clip posted in this forum doesn't show the entire show that was on the Sportsmans Channel.

On the tv show was where the claims were made that if a person didn't know what certain parts of the gun were, or know how to keep the gun properly oiled, ect that they should not be using a 1911.

Much to the point you were making. GI's for years have carried the 1911 without incident. Most of those GI's were not "gun" guys and were able to carry and use them effectively. Lots of times in less than ideal environments.

I don't have any problems running my Dan Wesson, and don't do anything different to it than the rest of my guns as far as lubrication, or whatever. And yea, with the right ammo, it will run even dry and dirty.
 
#22 ·
Flamesuits, get-cha' flamesuits!

Shooting handguns offhand at 100 yards is something you need to work on to be proficient at. I used to shoot my G19 at 100 yards pretty frequently before ammo prices went through the roof. With a makeshift rest, you can put 2/3 of a mag into a paper plate at 100. Offhand is still doable, albeit a little tougher.
 
#23 ·
Wow. There is much that is inexcusably wrong here, so I'll take it one bit of wrongness at a time:

1. Larry Vickers and the 1911:

Mr. Vickers is an award winning 1911 pistol smith who has the unique distinction of being one of the individuals most intimately familiar with the weapon as both a builder, armorer, and operator of the platform under the most demanding operational conditions imaginable. As such it would be wise to listen to the man when he says something about the 1911.

2. "Constantly miss the target":

I've personally watched Mr. Vickers shoot at distances greater than 100 yards with a 1911 and hit. I've done the same thing myself. With 230 grain hardball ammo you're doing a large amount of guessing on the sight picture required to make the hit. I'd say 8 out of 10 times he'll make that shot...which is a hell of a lot better than I can say for most people. He was one of the top firearms trainers for Delta and he has a bunch of shooting championships to his credit. It's the height of absurdity to assert that the man can't shoot. He HIT the target all the way out to 100 yards. When I see someone's comparable record of operational use of a firearm and their comparable list of championships, I'll listen to their criticisms of his shooting abilities. Until then....

3. "The 1911 doesn't require anything special"

Yes, it does. If you knew the platform better you'd understand that.

4. Lubrication:

If you intend to fire any significant amount of ammunition out of a 1911, you have the best chance of success if the weapon is generously lubricated. 3 drops of lube is not how a 1911 likes to run. You will not survive a 5 day, 3,000 round course with a 1911 by "sparingly" lubricating the weapon.

Generous lubrication gives the highest chance of the weapon functioning properly....thus those who depend on the weapon for saving their behinds would do well to ensure that the weapon is generously lubricated.

5. In general:

It would be wise to find out some information on individuals before making blanket dismissals of their opinion or just throwing out insults. There are a lot of idiots on TV....but Mr. Vickers is one of the people who actually has valid knowledge...as do the other co-hosts, both of which have won awards for valor while serving in Tier 1 units.
 
#24 ·
Oh...OK. New forum rules.

Nobody is allowed to disagree with Larry Vickers or voice any opinion that differs (in any way) from the opinion of Larry Vickers.

Even though Larry Vickers states that anybody that wants to rely on any 1911 format pistol that is smaller than a full size 1911 should shop for a different pistol.

I'm now going to slag down my Colt Combat Commander with an Oxy-Acetylene torch.

Even though (to date) it's been 100% reliable and it will even run dry of lube - now that Larry Vickers sez that I can't trust it anymore...it honestly needs to go into the trash bin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK I'm coming across as a smart-azz here and so I should watch what comes out of my own mouth but, on the flip side of the coin when folks get on TV and make blanket statements that are just patently untrue....they should expect some vocal backlash.

Certainly I have the utmost respect for Vickers and his extensive military and firearms background but stating that everybody who is looking for a reliable firearm that is 1911 patterned should shop for something else unless they buy a full size 1911 is a modestly hog-washish statement.

For sure DETONICS manufactured a radically chopped bushing-less 1911 and it fed and functioned reliably.
Detonics (for sure) had their problems but, those problems were not related to how their chopped 1911 fed and functioned.

Wouldn't all of the makers of "compact" 1911 pistols just stop making them if they were all being totally swamped with multitudes of thousands of "returned for repair" handguns that were consistently unreliable?
Obviously the vast majority of them are functioning just fine.

ALSO & of course "ideally" every firearm should be properly lubricated and of course a "bone dry" 1911 will not go anywhere near 3,000 rounds and function flawlessly.

I properly lubricate my own 1911 firearms.
I also properly lubricated my Colt Officers model and it always functioned flawlessly even though (I guess) it should not have been been reliable AT ALL since it was not a full size 1911.

I guess I just bought a fluke that happened to function perfectly.
 
#31 ·
Even though Larry Vickers states that anybody that wants to rely on any 1911 format pistol that is smaller than a full size 1911 should shop for a different pistol.
In the video clip, Larry quite clearly stated "In my opinion", so it's not like he was proclaiming it as holy writ.
 
#25 ·
People can disagree with whatever they like....but that doesn't change reality.

The simple truth is that the most reliable 1911 configuration is the 5" gun in .45 ACP. If folks are willing to accept the greater risk of using a compact 1911 despite the legendary issues they've had, well...it's on them.

Even though (to date) it's been 100% reliable and it will even run dry of lube - now that Larry Vickers sez that I can't trust it anymore...it honestly needs to go into the trash bin.
My great grandmother dipped snuff, smoked, and ate lots of lard into her 90's...and she lived to be 99, in full control of her mental faculties completely independent.

...but that doesn't mean that those cardiologists are all full of crap. :wink: I won't be repeating her lifestyle.
 
#26 ·
So....in other words your definition of "reality" regarding the 1911 is whatever Larry Vickers says about the 1911?

That's fine with me.

I'll base my reality on my own actual experiences with the handgun.
 
#37 ·
So....in other words your definition of "reality" regarding the 1911 is whatever Larry Vickers says about the 1911?
No, my definition of "reality" about the 1911 is partially informed by genuine subject matter experts who have a wealth of experience using the 1911 as a combat sidearm over a number of years.

Once more for clarity:

Mr. Vickers worked in a unit that legendarily used the 1911. While in that unit he had to learn the 1911 in and out just to keep the weapons up and running given their op tempo and the number of rounds they fired downrange. He got good enough to win an award for his 1911's from the American Pistolsmith's Guild, and the guns he built now command extremely high prices in the market. They are sought after by 1911 aficionados. As a guy who kept guns running in a unit with more operational experience with the 1911 than anybody since WWII (perhaps even including WWII) and who has trained literally thousands of people who use the 1911 as a sidearm he's probably supervised more rounds downrange through various 1911's than just about anyone else currently above ground.

You can ask practically anyone who makes 1911's (Bill Wilson, Lynn Freshley, Jason Burton, etc) or who knows them really well (Ken Hackathorn, etc) whether or not Mr. Vickers knows his stuff on the platform and they will answer in the definite affirmative.

Listening to the man about a platform he knows well would be a wise move.

My personal experience, while nowhere near as significant, has led me to the same conclusions....but even if it hadn't....even if every 1911 I ever touched was reliable and happy I would *STILL* pay very close attention to what Mr. Vickers has to say because my experience level with the platform will never come anywhere close to where his is. My personal experience with a few dozen 1911's over the years doesn't measure up to that standard.

Some people know more than I do....and know more than you do. Some people have more experience than I do...and more experience than you do. It would be wise to listen carefully to what they have to say.


For the vast majority of folks that carry a full size 1911 or...a more compact 1911 - their "reality" is not using that firearm defensively by having to go out and dispatch 3,000 bad guys in the desert with an improperly lubricated firearm.
No, the average user will not be firing 3,000 rounds through a handgun to defend themselves....nor does the average soldier find himself needing to fire a few thousand rounds during an engagement.

...and yet military personnel kept experiencing serious malfunctions or problems getting their weapons into action because the military taught that you should use only the tiniest amount of lubrication on issue guns as possible. The result: Lots of malfunctions and problems when it came time to use the weapons to put down a threat. Strangely enough those who learned to generously lubricate their weapons had far fewer problems when it came time to actually use the weapon to stop a threat.

Imagine that.

Proper lubrication is one of *many* factors involved in getting optimal function from a 100 year old pistol design. Those who are relying on that pistol to save their life in a critical moment would be foolish to ignore the input of people who have lots of experience actually deploying that weapon to save their lives.

So if a person carries and shoots that firearm in the world of their personal reality and they have absolutely no function related issues at all with that handgun...then that firearm is functionally perfect for their personal reality and their individual life situation.
...even if "their personal reality" is exceptionally limited?

Again: We're talking about the 1911 as a combat sidearm here...a weapon meant to drawn and used to put holes in vital bits of a bad guy's anatomy in a moment where you are facing the possibility of death or great bodily harm....just how much compromise are you willing to accept in that moment?

People who do not understand how a 1911 works and how to keep it in optimal working condition....people who want to treat a gun like a lawnmower...shouldn't be using a 1911. They should be packing one of the other options on the market that will tolerate being treated like a lawnmower. Someone is infinitely better off with an "ugly" 9mm Glock that will go bang than a cool looking snake-skin patterned 1911 that has feed issues when they are facing someone who is trying to kill them.

The site *is* named "Defensive Concealed Carry", right? A site dedicated to employing a handgun as a means to stop the hostile actions of a criminal aggressor? People like Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn (and others) have experience using the 1911 platform for just that purpose and as such it would be wise to pay attention to what they are saying.

Compact and all "less than full size" 1911 pattern pistols have certain physical characteristics and idiosyncrasies that could possibly make them less reliable than a full weight slabsides.
I would never argue that fact.
By using the term "possibly" you are arguing that fact.

The feed path of a 1911 is more complicated than on more modern designs like Glocks. That's just the simple truth of it. This core issue makes the weapon more likely to have feed issues.

With a 5" gun using an in-spec recoil spring, a properly tensioned extractor, ammunition designed for reliable feeding, and a good magazine (most 1911 mags are crap) you have the best feeding scenario possible with the 1911. If the recoil spring tension is off a bit, the gun will probably still run fine. If the extractor tension is off a bit, the gun will probably still run fine. If the magazine springs are weak, the gun will probably still run fine. On a 5" gun with Wilson 8 rounders generally the first sign of trouble is when the slide stops locking to the rear on empty rather than a feed issue.

When you chop that 5" gun down to a 3" gun you've dramatically complicated the feed process. Now everything has to be darn near perfect if the weapon is going to feed reliably. If your mag springs are weak then it's a lot less likely to get that next round up in time to be stripped by the faster moving slide. If the extractor tension is out of spec it will be much more critical. Etc. You have FAR LESS room for error, and that assumes that the gun worked from the box...which, given my experience with compact 1911s is HARDLY a guarantee. I don't know of a single 1911 maker out there who produces 5" guns that run all the time.

I've been in training with practically every brand of 1911 imaginable, and I have yet to see a single brand that didn't have a malfunction of some sort...and that includes a lot of well-known, high-dollar makers.

They ARE much less tolerant of being poorly built.
Yes...and even less tolerant of being poorly maintained. Here's the question:

How does the average gun owner spot a poorly built 1911? Answer: They can't because they don't know what a properly built 1911 is. Half the companies making a 1911 these days don't know what a properly built 1911 looks like, so how on earth is the average joe supposed to figure it out? How does the average joe know that the hole for the extractor is drilled improperly into the slide? How does the average joe know that the feed ramp was done improperly on the gun?

All of those considerations are going into the statements Mr. Vickers made on the show, and they are behind his advice that most people are better off selecting something other than a 1911 as a sidearm.

As a guy who has carried a 1911 for YEARS, I agree with him 100%.

To get a 1911 to run with acceptable reliability as we currently understand it requires an end user who knows the platform well enough to buy one that works initially and who will perform the required maintenance to keep it in optimal working condition. Everybody isn't like me....everybody out there isn't willing/able to switch out mag springs every 6 months, recoil springs every 3,000 rounds, or check/adjust extractor tension with every recoil spring change. Everybody isn't willing to put 500 rounds of carry ammo downrange with the weapon to check for feed and function in the gun. (230 grain Winchester Ranger HP)

Obviously the entire firearm industry of 1911 gun makers disagrees with him also...because they are still making compact version 1911s that multitudes of consumers "out there" are extremely happy with and are not having a whit of functional trouble with.
The firearm industry is loaded with dysfunction. Take Sig as an example. They imported the management from Kimber, who promptly scuttled their legendary QC and replaced it with efforts to make rainbow colored firearms in an effort to boost their profits. It worked. Sig is now at record levels of profitability...and their QC is in the toilet. They ship more lemons out now as a percentage than they ever have...and yet they keep selling guns.

Most consumers are, to put it mildly, unsophisticated. We've all been there. When I first got into guns I didn't have a clue. It took lots of years, wasted money, and lessons learned the hard way to correct that. Most people do not go through that process. I have a family member who bought a Beretta .380 25 years ago and they just finished the FIRST BOX of ammunition they bought with the gun last week.

I went through over 4,000 rounds and 2 formal training courses with my carry gun in just the last 30 days.

Most people haven't put the time and effort into learning that I've put in...and yet when it comes time to actually use a firearm for the purposes of defending their life, they'll need it to work every bit as much as I will.

...so frankly I don't put too much stock in the marketing nonsense. Yes, people are buying compact 1911's...and web boards are full of people asking why the gun they just spent 1,000 dollars on doesn't work....and then a few months later you see that they've sold the micro 1911 and bought a Glock, and now all 1911's suck horribly and Glocks are the greatest things ever because their gun didn't work, etc.

It's a lot of the blind leading the blind out there. If people would actually listen to people who have useful knowledge....people like Mr. Vickers...more often than not they'd end up with a happy outcome.
 
#27 ·
if you saying whether or not you should be using one, don't put yourself on tv with the gun and consistantly miss the target.
This would be similar to calling Tiger Woods a numb nuts for giving a golf clinic on TV, and not sinking every shot in the hole that he attempts. Seems fairly unreasonable to me . . .

I am happy that they showed the real footage, and didn't edit in a retake of him hitting the target just to make sure he looks good.

On the tv show was where the claims were made that if a person didn't know what certain parts of the gun were, or know how to keep the gun properly oiled, ect that they should not be using a 1911.
Does anyone disagree with the thoughts that people should be aware and educated about their tools to use them effectively? I agree with Vickers, if you can't show me how to de-cock your weapon safely and correctly, I don't think you should be using it. I don't expect a person to be aware of the entire anatomy like a gunsmith would, but they need to know the basics of the platform they use, and how to handle it properly.
 
#28 ·
I should make a clarification addition here.

For the vast majority of folks that carry a full size 1911 or...a more compact 1911 - their "reality" is not using that firearm defensively by having to go out and dispatch 3,000 bad guys in the desert with an improperly lubricated firearm.

Their reality is probably much closer to blowing off a couple or few hundred rounds in a week or possibly a month - then they go home and they clean and re-lubricate their firearm...hopefully...properly and then they are basically "good to go" again.
Every day is not a firearm torture or endurance test.

So if a person carries and shoots that firearm in the world of their personal reality and they have absolutely no function related issues at all with that handgun...then that firearm is functionally perfect for their personal reality and their individual life situation.

Would a Colt New Agent be as functionally reliable as a full size 1911 in Iraq? For sure probably not.

Compact and all "less than full size" 1911 pattern pistols have certain physical characteristics and idiosyncrasies that could possibly make them less reliable than a full weight slabsides.
I would never argue that fact.

The feed angle is a bit steeper. There is less slide mass which equals less slide energy for the feed.
It is critical that everything be much more precisely and properly fit for a diminutive 1911 to be able to function with good reliability.

The slide/frame rails need to be smooth.
Proper extractor tension is incredibly more important.
The breech face needs to be really smooth.
High quality magazines are a must.
A properly fit and throated barrel sure helps.
Proper magazine tension is far more critical especially to reliably feed the top cartridges.
Getting rid of the barrel bushing and opting for a bushingless barrel also helps.
Sticking with a brand of ammo that has a bullet nose configuration that easily chambers and has been tested for reliability in that particular carry handgun sure helps immensely.

So I absolutely agree that chopped 1911s are somewhat inherently more physically disadvantaged especially if they are just tossed together as parts rather than being properly fit/built.
They ARE much less tolerant of being poorly built.

My point is that if everything is done right on the smaller 1911s then there is no logical reason why they cannot be perfectly reliable and suitable for a person that wants to carry one for the purpose of self-defense.
 
#29 ·
First, I admit I know squat about 1911s. I don't own one and might shot a mag full through one during my adult life. With that said I can only offer what I have seen.

The 1911 platform is slowly disappearing from IDPA matches and the reason is lack of reliability. Before you guys get you underbritches in a wad, allow me to continue. My club shoots at least 2 matches a month that take upward of 120 rounds fired per match. We also have drills nights where your ammo count can go as high as 250 rounds. If you add to that a tactical rifle match where transition stages are designed, you can shoot close to 700 rounds on the move, on you back, etc. As I said before, less and less people are shooting 1911s because of reliability problems: Mags, extractors and what nots and this from very expensive guns. Why? Is the 1911 such a crappy firearm? If so, why such a reputation in the battlefield? There is something missing in the equation.
Some months back what appears to be the answer was printed in an article by Louis Awerbuck (SWAT Magazine) and it makes all the sense in the world, at least to me. The 1911 as J. M. Browning designed is a fine weapon. Again, he 1911 as J. M. Browning designed is a fine weapon... but we are producing mostly 1911s that are not what JMB designed but accurized versions of the old warhorse which makes them unreliable. The GI version of the 1911 rattles like a cheap maraca? Well, there is a reason for it: Dirt will not be such an important factor in the field that way. Why bushings if the Mod 1 Mark 0 version of the 1911 did not have it? Full length rods anybody? Now, Like I said I am no expert, but I doubt that JMB was having a bad day and designed a bad firearm. If anything we know he was a genius so why screw with his design?
So I humbly submit that it is not the gun or the designer but the love we have for tinkering with something to death that made the 1911 less reliable than originally designed.

Or to put it bluntly, who knows more about 1911s You or JMB?
 
#32 ·
The 1911 platform is slowly disappearing from IDPA matches and the reason is lack of reliability.
Do you have a source for your claims?

It's not disappearing from IDPA in my state, and I've found several of the current 1911's to be quite reliable. More 1911's are being sold today than at any time in history.

Delta Force, Marine Recons, LAPD SWAT, LAPD Special Investigation Section and many other elite military and law enforcement units, all swear by the 1911.

The main reason some people choose handguns other than the 1911, is ammo capacity. Since most people can't shoot like Rob Leatham, they prefer a Springfield XD or similar high capacity polymer pistol for self-defense.
 
#30 ·
The GI version of the 1911 rattles like a cheap maraca? Well, there is a reason for it: Dirt will not be such an important factor in the field that way.
That, unfortunately, is a misconception many people hold, the original M1911 was not built loose, it did not rattle like a can full of ball bearings (it was built just as designed by John Moses). The myth most likely started with the GIs who had the misfortune of be issued a M1911/M1911A1 that had been shot extensively without the benefit of an arsenal rebuild (the last NEW M1911A1 purchased by the U.S. Gov't was in 1945). The truth is the tolerances were not loosened until November of 1943 to ease parts interchangeability among manufacturers. Building them too loose is just as bad as building them too tight, too loose and you're just opening the pistol up to more debris entering it.

But, I do agree with you that there is little standardization with today's 1911 platform.
 
#38 ·
Precisely.

When initially built the 1911 was built to very strict standards laid out by the DOD. GI ammunition was also designed for optimum reliability with a bullet shape that gave a best case feeding scenario for the weapon and a taper crimp on the cartridge used to aid in reliable feeding. These days the only ammo you find taper crimped is premium quality duty ammo like the Winchester Ranger ammunition.

1911's are not built to a single standard these days, nor are they fed with ammunition carefully designed for optimum reliability in the weapon.

If I had a dollar for every 1911 I've seen with the barrel sticking out over the improperly done feed ramp, I could probably buy another case of ammo.
 
#33 ·
I watched that episode ( it's on about 5 times a day ) and kind of took that as a general statement. " If you don't know how to disassemble, clean, lube, and reassemble your firearm". More as a recommendation, not as a fact. Which I in part, agree. If you can't field strip, clean, lube, and reassemble your gun, it may not the gun for you.

Plus, it's TV. They kind of cater to the lowest common denominator. Not the more skilled gun owner.
 
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