What IS a pistol?

This is a discussion on What IS a pistol? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HotGuns A sub machine gun is an automatic weapon that fires pistol rounds...an example would be the MP5 in 9mm or the ...

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Thread: What IS a pistol?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    A sub machine gun is an automatic weapon that fires pistol rounds...an example would be the MP5 in 9mm or the Thompson Auto in .45 ACP.

    If it fires rifle calibers it is simply known as a machine gun.
    I know that, but others on here are wanting to classify the MP5 and an Uzi as a machine pistol.

    To me a machine pistol would be a full-auto Glock or something along the line of that. Didn't the Russians make one called a Scorpian or something like that?
    Last edited by Doc Holliday; April 14th, 2006 at 09:13 AM.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

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  3. #17
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    Acually the Skorpian was made by CZ.

    The machine pistol,like a Glock or a Mini Uzi could be fired with one hand...this one is a .32 ACP


  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    So would you classify the Skorpian as a SMG or a machine pistol?
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

  5. #19
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    Not to pre-empt HG but I call the Skorpion a machine pistol
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Starting to see my point? If you really want to start looking closely at some of the guns made out there - the Skorpian is a good example - it can start to get confusing as to what is realyy what (at least legally).

    BTW, I don't think the PLR is legal in Kalifornia and while I may be wrong, I believe if I were to simply add a vertical forearm grip - a pistol grip for most of us - to the front accessory rail, the PLR would be classified as a short barreled rifle or some such thing and subject to a different set of BATF laws, like owning a sawed-off shotgun. Without it, it's the same as any other semi-auto pistol on the market. The difference a $10 piece of plastic can make and, to use a phrase realtors like, it's all about the location.

    FYI, for those states where the PLR is legal, you can get the basic model for around $500 and for less than $100 more get all the accessories. A whole lot of bang for the buck when you think about it and I'm sure quite a conversation piece the next time you go to the "pistol" range. I wouldn't wait too long though. This little gem looks like it's going to be too much fun to own and will make some people nervous. If it's ever used to commit a crime, some left wing anti-gun group will jump on it as the next "lethal weapon" and get it either banned or force the factory to change it to a more conventional look and/or style to avoid lawsuits.
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    Pistol vs. Rifle, huh? Well, it is built with a "rifle" caliber and is a pretty hefty gun. Take a short barreled Colt M4 rifle and saw off the plastic stock...is it now a pistol? I can see where you can argue the skorpion, but I think you've got yourself a nice rifle there rachilders. If Kel-Tec got it a pistol designation, more power to them, though. Just a side note I suppose, though. I know my pistol range would not allow that weapon (as they judge by caliber, not the gun itself).

    A range report would be most appreciated. I've been looking for a plinking rifle and PLR has definately caught my eye (whether it is a pistol or rifle). Also, I've heard many negative things about cleaning a AR style rifle {see excellent rant here: http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm} (and since it has an AR reciever), could you include a cleanup summary with your range report?

    Thanks in advance for the info.
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    I don't own one, but I'm familar with their workings... The PLR has a gas piston/op-rod setup, with an AR style bolt lockup. Kindof like a cross between an AR and an AK. Shouldn't have the 'deficates where it eats' problem that Ogre, and countless others, have complained about.

    If it were a rifle, it would be an SBR by BATFE specs. By making it a pistol, intended to shoot single handed, they can use a short barel without requiring the $200 'tax' A forward vertical grip would make it an AOW, from what I understand.

    KT makes a SBR version, the SU16D is the same gun as the PLR, with a folding stock.

    The Skorpian is a machine gun, machine guns can't be SBR's, since barel length doesn't matter if it's full auto. Stock or no stock doesn't matter to the BATFE either... if it's full auto, it's a machine gun.

    There is at least one russian machine pistol I'm aware of, it's called a Stechkin. I was lucky enough to get to shoot one, it has a holster than can be reversed and attached as a stock. Kinda neat, really.

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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    I'll try and do a report as soon as I get a chance to try it out. I'd hoped to do it this weekend, but with people here from out of town for Easter, it may a little longer before I can get out to the range. BTW, I'm a bit rusty on some of my gun abbreviations; what is an AOW? I have a rail mounted pistol grip I COULD install on my PLR, but don't need any hastles with the feds if it's going to change the status of the gun. I'll leave it off to play it safe... at least in public.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    BTW, I forgot to mention that I'd also ordered a carrying handle from Midway. The PLR accepts the same detachable handle as flat top AR's. It should get here with the muzzle brake. I'll post a photo of the finished product when all the parts finally arrive. Like I've said, showing up at the "pistol" range with it should be interesting.
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    You shouldn't get much flak. I have a Carbon 15 pistol and a Vector V51 in .308 and I shoot them as pistols...at least until the tax stamp comes back on the Vector.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info cmidkiff. I'll definately have to check it out.
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    now that is a real bug-out gun. takes up minimum space and powerfull enough for most emergencies, Gotta get me one.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    AOW == 'Any Other Weapon'. From 26 USC sec. 5845(e).

    "...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

    BATFE's 'Catch all' term. Must be registered just as a machine gun or SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) would have to be, but the 'tax' is only $5.

    I'm _not_ a lawyer... but from what I understand, putting that forward vertical grip on your PLR will make it an AOW. Contact the BATFE to be sure (and get it in writing) before you do so!
    Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

  15. #29
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    Pistols, machine pistols, sub guns , carbines rifles, MG's. They are all good. Nice looking gun anyway.
    As for the AR's being so bad, why does every branch of the military use em then? I have read Mad Ogres site, not sure what to make of it. seems a bit on the personal side , rather than total logic. If AR/M16's were that bad we would have lost a few wars I would think.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    We would probably win wars if our boys on the ground used bolt action weapons. We simply field the best all-around force in the world. And a hearty 'Thanks' to any current or former members of our armed forces who might be reading this!

    Mad Ogre has a right to his opinion... I'll agree with some of Ogre's statements, the direct gas operation leads to 'gunk' in the action, and 'gunk' on parts with tight tolerances can lead to decreased reliablility. In actual practice, AR/M16 rifles have performed well for 50 years now. Perhaps something better is on the horizon, but I don't see Stoner's design being tossed anytime soon.

    The target of this thread, KT's PLR/SU16 design, gets around this issue by mating an AK style op-rod/recoil system with an AR style bolt, in a lightweight composite receiver. It's a solid, innovative design. George Kelgren should be proud! While I don't own this gun, I do own (and carry) 2 Kel-tec pistols, and I've been quite happy with them.

    All the same, I like my Bushmaster, and I'd not trade it for a FAL or AK, or even a KT PLR/SU16 (not that I'd mind _adding_ any of the three to my collection!).
    Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

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