SA/DA Question/Opinion

This is a discussion on SA/DA Question/Opinion within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I read in the latest issue of Combat Handguns that a light SA handgun, especially cocked and locked is a legal liability. Has anyone else ...

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Thread: SA/DA Question/Opinion

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array .45acp's Avatar
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    SA/DA Question/Opinion

    I read in the latest issue of Combat Handguns that a light SA handgun, especially cocked and locked is a legal liability.

    Has anyone else seen this article?

    I may have misunderstood the article, maybe it pertains only to those that had a trigger job.
    Any opinions, feedback, etc. are appreciated.

    Thanks,
    George

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array TonyW's Avatar
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    I read the article and I think it was more talking about guns that had been modified or a revolver that was cocked to be SA. I don't think a gun like a standard, unmodified, 1911 would be a liability as the gun is functioning like it is intended. The argument was that if you modify a gun to have a "hair trigger" it could cost you in court. Not sure if I agree with that but Ayoob (think he wrote that article) has much more experience on this than I do. And besides, on a duty/carry gun a trigger job isn't necessary, again IMO.
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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    That is complete BS. I hate gun rags. They are no better than liberals. They cloud the issue of legal liability. If you are involved in a shooting, the thing the jury will look at will be whether your use of deadly force was justified under the circumstances and totality of the situation. That is all. If we listened to the gun rags, we would use the same gun, same caliber, same ammo, and all have greasy 20 pound triggers to guard against civil litigation.

    The references to trigger pull weight, in MY opinion how I interpret them simply mean don't use a light trigger if you can't handle it properly. The factory has set the trigger pull for 80% of the market. 10% can use a lighter trigger, 10% should use a heavier trigger. Same as car manufacturers. They build a car for the average driver. Some sup them up to release potential that they can handle. Some are better off leaving it stock.

    A Glock with a round in the chamber is no better or worse than a 1911 C&L. In a Glock you have to overcome the trigger safety and in a 1911 you have to snick off the thumb safety (assuming you already gripped the gun and have taken that out of the equation). It doesn't make one gun safer or one more dangerous. Safeties get in the way of operation and it takes time to learn the proper manual of arms for a particular weapon. This is why familiarity is so important in a defensive arm. If you need it, you need it NOW and don't have time to figure it out. It needs to be an extension of your body.

    Gun rags aren't filled with facts, only opinions. This is why there is a lot of confusion in the combat carry market on what to carry, how to carry, how to train. It is all opinion. The major gunfighting schools mainly have the same doctrine. The gun rags are there to sell guns pure and simple. If you are shopping for a gun, get a gun rag. If you want real world opinion, talk to people who have been there, done that.

    This is where the forums come in handy. Here, Glocktalk, 1911forum, SIG forums, HK forums, and others. Here you get information on different topics from actual users who don't get paid to push products and blow smoke up our asses like the gun rags do.

    As much as Ayoob is hammered on for inaccuracy in some aspects, he is one of the biggest researchers in defensive use of firearms. He has YET to find any case where gun accessories or tuning have played a significant role in the case against the defendant. That speaks volumes. Yes, there is always a first time for everything, but they are having a hard time with this one.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    This is exactly the reason I don't carry a 1911 or similar semiauto in the cocked and locked position. I always carry either my Sig P245 hammer down for a DA first shot or my USP hammer down for the same reason. To my way of thinking, the really critical shot is always the FIRST one. That's the one where the jury is deliberating on whether you had cause to defend yourself and they'll also be second guessing on whether the discharge was an unintentional act, thus setting up the civil lawsuit. With any SA pistol, a group of ignorant jurors is going to feel the dry fire trigger pull on a 1911 and jump because "it goes off SO easy!" It doesn't matter if you've got a five pound or more trigger pull, they won't notice it. The hammer will fall and take them by surprise. IF the first shot is found to be justifiable and valid, then all the follow on shots fired SA won't matter. But I want my FIRST to be a long takeup so that there is absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that I absolutely MEANT to have that pair of 230gr slugs slam smack dab into the cranial vault or thru the BG's right eyeball.

    Having said that, I can see no viable reason to alter a trigger pull for any gun you carry on the street or use for self defense at home. Neither can I see the use of disabling any safety device. Some folks like to "pin" the grip safety on a 1911 for example. NEVER disable or monkey with a safety device, IMHO!

    There is a place for the so called "hair" trigger and that would be on competition weapons or hunting rifles already equipped with the "Double Set Triggers."
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    A reasonably set 1911 will be within the same range as the 10 billion Glocks, running around. I would not be inclined to have a SA notch left on a SD revolver, though, as there is legal precedence for "negligence" in that config (SF or NYPD, IIRC).

    The gun mags are no better than much of what you get on your daily-dose of internet (with a few notable exceptions....).

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    I am with Ex on platform choice - in my case the 226, or even 228 or 220. All same DA/SA.

    I have no real aversion to C&L 1911, in fact had BHP in carry service a ways back, and no grip safety there. I would not be overly concerned on the legal aspect of C&L SA carry but I can imagine it possible some clever-dick attorney just might try and make a thing of it.

    But heck let's face it - there are probably some attornies who would claim and aim to prove, black was white when trying to prosecute!
    Chris - P95
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    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    You might think of it this way: studies have shown that, under stress, the average shooter applies about 20 lbs of pressure to the trigger. So, whether you have a 3 lb, 8lb or 12 lb trigger pull, is going to make little difference when you are shooting in a real situation. The real question will be whether or not it was a good shoot. It is possible that some lawyer might try to make your trigger job an issue, or your choice of ammo, or your decision to train, or your decision to strap on your pistol that day, or something you once said on a forum, or that you once spanked your kid, or were observed making an obscene gesture at someone. Whether or not you were justified in shooting at all will be far more important than anything else, and may end up being the only important point, unless you were in the wrong.

    For me, personally, I wouldn't want a target trigger on a combat handgun. Smooth, yes. Ultra-light, no.
    - Tom
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    Senior Member Array TonyW's Avatar
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    To comment further, the article wasn't really about making the shot or whether or not it was a good shoot. It was more about how an attorney can make you look in court. There were some examples given about modified triggers and one that I remember where a police officer cocked his revolver so it was SA and then making a shot, which was argued as a ND instead of the self-defense shot that it was. Under that stressful of a situation I don't know that I would want a target/competition trigger on my gun when the adrinalin (sp?) kicks in. Fortunately, I have never been in that situation yet.
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Array .45acp's Avatar
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    Yeah, no target sights, trigger jobs, etc on my carry 1911 just better mags and will be adding laser sights.
    I was just a little concerned as it has a light pull from the factory, only about 4 pounds and was concerned that it qualified as "hair trigger". I want to protect myself and family, others in a really bad situation but don't want to be seen as one who is out to play Dirty Harry or Charlie Bronson. I don't want to be a BG as some scuzball of a lawyer might try to make me out to be.
    BTW-No offense meant to "Real Attorneys", just the scuzballs that protect the BG's and try to make them look like the victims instead of the predators.

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    If my 1911 is pointed at someone , its for a good reason. If I am to that point I want a accurate shot.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    I gave up on gun rags back when Marshall & Sanow published their "study" of caliber effectiveness and stopping power . I generally agree with Freakshow's opinion on gunrags with the exception of their real goal - they're aren't trying to sell guns, they're trying to sell magazines, plain and simple. Sure there are knowledgable gun writers out there but they're the exception, not the rule.

    Look at it this way: Would you rather read a gun review written by: Marshall/Sanow/Libourel, etc. or Stephen Camp? I'll take Stephen's review every time.
    Jack

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