What if I want Ginger AND Maryanne...Originally Posted by Team American
This is a discussion on H&K Vs SIG within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's a win win situation. I shot both the 229 and uspc before purchasing my HK. I went with the usp due to lighter weight, ...
It's a win win situation.
I shot both the 229 and uspc before purchasing my HK. I went with the usp due to lighter weight, preference over the control setup, finish, and the thing is built like a tank.
What if I want Ginger AND Maryanne...Originally Posted by Team American
"Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."
Didn't like the feel of the H&K trigger or grip, so I am still with my SIG 226.
Being that my Sig is almost 20 years old and only had siglites installed and then night sights needed replaced once. It is still a tack driver holds tight groups and can easily keep all shots COM.
I qualify with this one annually and it is my daily carry gun.
If light rails were needed on handguns John Browning would have included it on the 1911.
~Sits at table and prepares for luscious dinner of ....CROW!~
I am hereby revising and rescinding my entire previous post on the 9mm, based on the discussions I had last weekend at the State of Florida's 2006 IDPA Match. I used my Beretta M92FS and it sang like a bird. No malfunctions over the entire eight stage course (three of which were low or NO light -- an indoor range does offer some benefits). I got to talking with a bunch of the other shooters at the match on this very topic...well Sig v H&K did figure and I love them both....but more on that one in a bit. The consensus among the folks I spoke to (many LEO professionals and SWAT among them as well as well as a smattering of SpecOps) is that "stopping power" is less a matter of caliber and more a matter of shot placement and bullet configuration. If you'll look at the April/May issue of HANDGUNS you'll find an excellent article on caliber efficiency in bullet configurations.
The bottom line is that there are plenty of rounds in ALL "self defense" calibers that are 90+% "stoppers." The reality is that you're probably going to throw a controlled pair into a BG anyway, and there's durn few folks who will keep coming. For those who do...well...that's why the "Failure to Stop" drill was invented. As somebody else on this board recently stated: The BG will never know the difference between 9mm, 40, 45, 10mm or 357 (Sig or magnum).
The military HAS to use "BALL" ammo as is dictated by the Hague Accords. The 9mm is an ineffective stopper in this caliber. But in a good JHP or frangible load like RBCD, the 9mm is more than effective. For years the FBI's HRT used the Browning Hi-Power. I think the SAS still uses it. I think if you like it and can hit with it...a NINE is FINE. I may switch. But to which gun?
NOW we go back ON TOPIC. I love my H&K USP 45 fullsize. However it is a tad big for CCW and since I now have a StreamLight hung on it's rails, it has become my "dedicated" HD gun. But that gun went over 2000 rds with only the lube from the factory and zero cleaning before I finally realized my buddy's claims of go-to-war-reliability right from the box were true. I love the mag release of the H&K! But I hate the raspy grips and gritty hard trigger pull.
OTOH, there is the Sig. I also love my P245 for around town carry. I use a couple of P220 mags as backup. Still, it's a lack of capacity. My P245 also has a somewhat heavy initial DA trigger pull. I recently had the opportunity to "dry fire" a Sig P229 with the DAK trigger and I loved that....but I've not had the chance to live fire the gun. I still lean in the direction of the "shorty forty" but I could go to the 9mm as well. I want something compact, reliable, hi-capacity and accurate. The P229 offers the 9mm with 15 (14+1) rds and the 40 with 13 (12+1) rds. I definitely want the SAS finish and the DAK. Otherwise the TDA (Traditional Double Action) of the Sig makes no sense for me, with that initial 10.5 lbs trigger pull and subsequent 6.5 SA pulls. Of course with a like strike the Sig can be re-pulled for another try at setting off the primer.
BUT the H&K offers the LEM trigger. That thing functions exactly like the ParaOrd LDA. The slide is forced to the rear and the trigger cocked, placing it in a ready condition and requiring but minimal effort to pull. But once pulled and the tension released, a subsequent pull is suddenly very tough to engage. You want the light pull? Well, you'd have to retract the slide again. I think that's a down side for me. Now I'm back to the 9mm v 40 question in the Sig P229 again.
On the THIRD hand there is NOW the new ParaOrdnance TAC-5 9mm with 1911 controls and grip but a 19rd capacity in a Commander package. THAT might prove interesting. I'm still set on the P229. The just out issue of COMBAT HANDGUNS has an extensive test on the P229 40 SAS. Look for it on news stands NOW. The TAC-5 is in that issue too.
Last edited by ExSoldier; July 2nd, 2006 at 07:47 PM.
Not sure I understand your explanation of a downside. I have the LEM trigger on a P2000 in 40 (shot the LDA trigger and a USP in DA/SA). The only time the trigger pull is very tough to engage is on a failure of the round to fire, e.g., light strike. I consider a 2nd strike capability as a potential plus. In a life/death situation, people will probably be attempting to squeeze off a round. The tap-rack-bang drill would only need to happen after a 2nd strike failure.Originally Posted by ExSoldier
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are describing.
Both are outstanding weapons. I had an HK USP compact, but traded it back to Rhome for a 1911 (very tricked out). Still have my Sig 220, and will never get rid of it. Glock (23 and30) are still primary carry, but the Sig is getting more and more carry. Sorta grows on you like a fungus (a good fungus).
I like the 2nd strike capability, too. I just don't like the much heavier trigger pull after the tension has first been released. The Sig DAK has the 2nd strike, too but as I understand it, the trigger pull is just as easy as the first. That's all. The H&K is just like the LDA from ParaOrd in that respect. There's nothing "wrong" with either system. Just personal preference on my part. Have I been clearer?Originally Posted by sojourner
Well since I posted this last I got a P 228 that I love!!!!!! Still want the 226 back.Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!
Much clearer. I was agonizing over getting the LEM or DAK trigger. Finally got the LEM. Never shot a DAK trigger though.Originally Posted by ExSoldier
I've never live fired either one but I have dry fired them both. I like the DAK. So I'm about 99% settled that it's the P229 in 9mm with the SAS finish and the DAK trigger.Originally Posted by sojourner
I found the 229 SAS with Dak wasn't for me its on consignment at the gun dealer Sigh
I used to own a USP and I now own a Sig 229. I'm finding I like the 229 better. The USP was a great gun, but I did not like the harsh grips, and I didn't care for the variant 1 decock/safety. I'm finding I like the grip on the 229 better. If I ever find a USP with just the decocker, I might get it.
Ya know you can convert a usp to just a decocker right? or you can order it that wayOriginally Posted by MidnightRambler
I am really drawn to the P2000SK with the LEM trigger system...
But like to have one chambered in .45 which I don't believe they make as of yet...
So it's Sig for now and probably for a while....
"Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.
"...be water, my friend."
I knew that, but I did not want to go through the hassle of sending it in somewhere to have it done, then being w/o a gun for several weeks. If I ever run into one with a variant 3 at a show or something, I may consider it.Originally Posted by Bud White