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is a .380 enough

39K views 261 replies 110 participants last post by  KSDeputy 
#1 ·
Now before anyone says its shot placement or whatever Ive already given that some thought. I guess what my question is is if you work at a job where its not a real big deal if I print would you be looking for something bigger mostly for work or would you just stay with the edc p3at in pocket holster. Thinking about the Kimber tactical pro but still have not made up my mind. I had a glock 27 and didnt care for the carry of it (love Glocks thou) would the kimber carry better because it is thinner. Also our prime objective is to stop the threat which does not necesarilly mean the biggest hole we can. Ive got a hard time believing the .380 would not do that. Anyway just looking for input
 
#69 ·
I'm still waiting for that survey from people who have been shot in the guts, nuts and face by six or so hollow-point .380 bullets, with stories and statistics about how much or little they hurt, and about how they did or did not laugh into the flashing gun muzzles when they got hit.
 
#70 ·
Yes, it will do the job. Get some of the more advanced .380 ammo - say Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I seen a demo of this. Yes it was gel - but they also put very heavy clothing in front it. It penetrated over 10" and expanded very well. Compare that with some typical hollow points in .45 that clogged with clothing and never expanded - and penetration was close to the same.

Remember, the .380 & 9mm are the same size. Get some hot .380 loads and carry away. Yes a .45 will make a slightly bigger hole than a .380 or 9mm - will it make that much difference? I would be more worried about over penetration of the .45 - not expanding, passing all the way through and maybe hitting someone else. Again, to each their own. A canon ball will make a bigger hole the a .45
 
#73 ·
I can only hope so. 2 more rounds than my LCR and a much faster reload if needed.

Holster is a bit small as it's (for sale) a Pocket Grabber from High Noon for the
Beretta .22/25, but it looks good!!
 
#74 ·
Recently, at a local Vandalia, Ohio, range, I shot my Kel-Tec P-11 for the first time, at a close CCW target, just to get a feel for it and see if it worked. It hurt. Then, I started firing my new Taurus PT-92 Beretta knock off down range at a farther target, having more comfortable fun with this bigger heavier prettier gun. The range officer told me that I'd have some liability issues if I shot at that range, it no longer being a matter of self-defense. So, for carjacking and parking lot attacks, .380s will do...and might keep you from being sued.
 
#75 ·
Respectfully, the .380 is probably enough as a secondary backup gun to your primary CCW piece, but I don't think it cuts the mustard as the lone pistol you want to carry.

I'd start at a very hot 9mm and work my way up; however, an underpowered .380 that you'll carry 24/7 beats a 40-ounce 1911 .45 left at home.
 
#76 ·
a 8 inch bladed knife will do a number on a person much better than a 4" with good KF skills. That said a 9mm will do a much better job at stopping a fight than a .380. Just don't trust a .380 due to lack of power and penetration.

I personally won't carry anything less than a 9mm, but thats just me.

A .380 is a heck of alot better than nothing.
 
#81 ·
95 gr. WWB FMJ penetrates over 16 inches in ballistic gelatin. I wouldn't say that is insufficient when it comes to reaches a BG's vitals.

FWIW, I'm glad to see all of the folks getting permits for the first time and buying up all of these pocket .380's. We need as many pro carry and pro 2nd people we can get these days.
 
#85 ·
The .380 will do the job.:hand10:

Are there better and more powerful choices, sure, but the OPs question was pretty clear and the clear answer is yes. If used properly and knowing that it's likely to take more than one round to stop the fight, use it as it should be used. The small ultra compact .380 can give ya a tactical advantage in many situations and because they're so small and easily concealed you'll most likely have the thing with ya when the scumbag comes calling. A round or two to COM and a security round to the forehead problem solved.

Not all the scumbags out there and willing to attack their fellow man for whatever reason are gonna be hopped up on PCP or some other high flying drug. Unlike some, I have seen a .380 round in action and it was a FMJ round that had plenty of penetration to hit vitals. Now I'm no MD, but FMJ or JHP hitting a vital organ, or through the noggin will stop the fight IMO. If we have a MD here please correct me if I'm wrong, on the bold text only please..:blink:

I carry the .380 as a BUG to my G26, but have no doubts that the .380 using the JHP and or FMJ and in sufficient quantity will defend the average person if applied correctly.

My suggestion to a new shooter deciding on a SD caliber. Look to the 9mm and up as your primary round for SD, but if all you can carry in one of the smaller .380 pistols do it, but know that you will need to train with the smaller caliber mindset if you do. Multiple shot groups and shot placement should be high on your list of things to practice and practice often until it can be done without hesitation, then go with confidence. FWIW

GBK :bier:
 
#87 ·
I suppose it would work? Personally I depend on 9mm+p or 38+p as my minimum main gun. But it really is going to be up to you at the end of the day. Good luck, and stay safe.
 
#88 ·
Thank you to everyone who has given me much to think about, I have made a decision, I bought a Glock 27 with a crossbreed super tuck and a new crossbreed belt for the times when Im at work or in other areas that I can dress around the gun, but am still keeping the P3at for the times when I cant. thanks to everyone
 
#90 ·
I think this depends somewhat on where you live. If you live in Florida where the temperature is usually decent (exluding this week!) a .380 should be fine. Most attackers won't be wear multiple layers of clothing including a heavy coat or similar. Now if you live in a colder area you may want a larger caliber. It's been about 15-20F here over the past 2 weeks, so an attacker is more likely to be wearing heavier / multiple layers of clothing.

I carry a .380 in the summer for 2 reasons... I wear lighter clothing in the summer so the smaller gun is easier to conceal... plus attackers will probably be dressed like myself (in light clothing).

Now I carry a .40 in the winter for 2 reasons... I wear more clothing thus easier to conceal a larger weapon plus attackers have more clothing... so I like the extra penetration power of the .40.
 
#93 ·
No, it is not 'enough'.

Recent case in point man on the ground style results;

As reported by the Miami Dade Herald:

Police identify robber, customer in deadly Burger King shooting
Posted on Thursday, 03.26.09
The Miami Herald > News > Miami-Dade > Miami-Dade Breaking News
BY JOSE PAGLIERY
jpagliery@MiamiHerald.com

Miami police released the names of those involved in the Burger King shootout Tuesday that ended with a dead armed robber and the seriously-wounded customer who shot him.

John Landers, 45, was the customer who walked up to the gun-wielding masked robber, 18-year-old Johnny Jean-Baptiste, when the restaurant's clerk was being robbed at 4 p.m. Tuesday.

According to police, Jean-Baptiste wore a ski mask when he walked into the Burger King at Northwest 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard armed with a gun. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early. Jean-Baptiste then approached the counter, pointed his tiny semiautomatic Bryco .380 towards the restaurant's employees and demanded money.

That's when Landers, armed with a concealed weapons permit and his 9mm Glock 19, asked Jean-Baptiste to put the gun down, according to the police report.

Jean-Baptiste refused and began firing his gun and Landers shot back, police reported.

Within seconds, Landers had been shot in his chest, shoulder and arm -- and Jean-Baptiste lay dead on the restaurant floor, according to police.

...Jean-Baptiste fell to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Landers, who was shot several times, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Source - http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/breaking-news/story/968765.html
That is real world street results, modern and not from a James Bond fiction book.

Three .380 ACP shots as fired from an always compact (short barrel) form factor to one 9MM shot from a full size form factor, last and final.

The .380 ACP at close quarter combat distances as very many people who don't know any better is functionally inadequate as compared to any other available short barrel/compact firearm chambering.
People often state they buy this chambering for specifically close encounter options. Grab a reloading manual or stop by any ammo mfrs. website and compare the velocity and power figures for both to each other. There is simply no match. There just isn't.
As to firearm form factor .38 Special and 9MM as well as now modern .40 S&W and even .45 ACP are available in same size 'compact' and 'sub compact' format firearms as are the options chambered in .380.

Bottom line it all comes down to horsepower.
He, or she, with the most almost always reaches the finish line first.

In the human race why take shorts and bet on a known loser?
To do so with any degree of seriousness just doesn't make any sense.

The .380 is not enough due to simple and basic physics.

- Janq

"The .380 is simply not in the same performance class as the 9mm....The 9mm Wins Hands Down" - Dick Metcalf, Technical Editor, Shooting Times
'9mm Versus .380 ACP For Self-Defense'
9mm Versus .380 ACP For Self-Defense
 
#94 ·
No, it is not 'enough'.
Respectfully; Janq, I totally disagree. Any projectile traveling at or around 900 fps and hit in any critical area of the human body can and in most cases kill you, simple fact of kinetic energy. By the fact based study done by someone (I can't recall the study, or reference off hand) regarding the (one stop shot) shows that the .380 round was 69% effective for one stop shots. This isn't even about the OSS argument, but the outcome of that study proves your statement to be at best wrong. It's just not the best choice to achieve the all elusive "one shot stop" which isnt a given in any caliber in itself. There can be study after study, but the fact remains that any caliber can "Be enough" if applied correctly by the operator. A .22 to the brain will stop all motor function if placed properly. FWIW

I normally agree with your insight and logic, but the statement of "no it's not enough" in its context is subject to your opinion and not so much the ballistic facts of the .380 round.

GBK :bier:
 
#97 ·
I find this resource to be really good when thinking about pocket pistols: http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

Take a good look at the .380s and then take a look at the subcompact 9mm. There isnt a huge difference in size. If you can swing it go with 9mm. Either way a .380 is better than not carrying
 
#99 ·
...Either way a .380 is better than not carrying
In kind as you, and I prior through my own LINK have shown, if you can afford a .380 and deal with that sub-compact size then bumping up in real world functional capability by as much as 30% without any additional cost in acquisition fees, format size, round count/capacity and 9MM ammo costs same or even less to train with...Then what good and strong reason is there to entertain .380 ACP at all.

Never mind .38 Special, .40 S&W, and even .45 ACP compact and sub-compact options that have been and are available as well.

- Janq
 
#100 ·
I go frequently to this place since it is close to my work. I am armed with a .45 though.

Quote:
As reported by the Miami Dade Herald:

Police identify robber, customer in deadly Burger King shooting
Posted on Thursday, 03.26.09
The Miami Herald > News > Miami-Dade > Miami-Dade Breaking News
BY JOSE PAGLIERY
jpagliery@MiamiHerald.com

Miami police released the names of those involved in the Burger King shootout Tuesday that ended with a dead armed robber and the seriously-wounded customer who shot him.

John Landers, 45, was the customer who walked up to the gun-wielding masked robber, 18-year-old Johnny Jean-Baptiste, when the restaurant's clerk was being robbed at 4 p.m. Tuesday.

According to police, Jean-Baptiste wore a ski mask when he walked into the Burger King at Northwest 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard armed with a gun. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early. Jean-Baptiste then approached the counter, pointed his tiny semiautomatic Bryco .380 towards the restaurant's employees and demanded money.

That's when Landers, armed with a concealed weapons permit and his 9mm Glock 19, asked Jean-Baptiste to put the gun down, according to the police report.

Jean-Baptiste refused and began firing his gun and Landers shot back, police reported.

Within seconds, Landers had been shot in his chest, shoulder and arm -- and Jean-Baptiste lay dead on the restaurant floor, according to police.

...Jean-Baptiste fell to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Landers, who was shot several times, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Source - http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miam...ry/968765.html
 
#101 ·
Unless you are firing a weapon with an explosive projectile that will instantly blow your target into pieces, you should not expect to get a one-shot-stop.

Rifle, shotgun, handgun - does not matter. Do not expect a one-shot stop. If you do get one - be pleasantly surprised. And yes, I've read first-hand accounts of folks not being stopped immediately despite hits with some serious caliber weapons.

Instead, carry a firearm with you all the time. Practice multiple, rapid hits. Use ammo that penetrates to the vitals. With some calibers (9mm and up) you can use expanding ammo and still get adequate penetration. With others (below .380) you cannot - better to use FMJ. The .380 is borderline - use FMJ or a mix of FMJ/JHP.

The main advantage of the larger "service" pistols is ammo capacity, not really "caliber." I would not feel under armed with 9mm FMJ, for example. The expansion afforded by a JHP is not usually going to make a difference - just like the slightly larger diameter of a .45 is not usually going to make a difference versus a 9mm. The main advantage of a JHP is less risk of overpenetration. If .380 FMJ can reach the vitals, then what's the problem?

It's all a compromise. To discount the .380 as always inadequate is disingenuous. And there is NO 9mm as small, light and compact as a .380 LCP/P3at except for the Rohrbaugh R9 - which is very expensive and not without its own issues and design compromises.

For some, concealed carry is more like "covert" carry. Different needs, different tools, different compromises. 'Nuff said about that.:smile:
 
#108 · (Edited)
The main advantage of the larger "service" pistols is ammo capacity, not really "caliber." I would not feel under armed with 9mm FMJ, for example. The expansion afforded by a JHP is not usually going to make a difference - just like the slightly larger diameter of a .45 is not usually going to make a difference versus a 9mm. The main advantage of a JHP is less risk of overpenetration. If .380 FMJ can reach the vitals, then what's the problem?
I think I would have to disagree with any argument based solely on capacity. I carry a slim 9mm 7+1, a 15+1 9mm and an 8RD .45ACP. Larger service rounds such as .40 S&W and .45 ACP are normally going to have less capacity but the all important more penetration needed.

Please see the attached paper. It makes for good reading.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

SIG
 
#102 ·
Agreed 10thMTN...

There is no such thing as 100% effective under any and all conditions as relative to any normal and carryable condition handgun chambering.
Just okay, good, better and best degree of odds upward toward but never hitting 100% on shot stop effectiveness.

Also agreed regarding bullet design.
If for some very odd reason I were to choose .380 ACP (such as nothing else is available in the immediate) then if at all I had a choice the no brainer pick would be FMJ. Again for reasons of physics...As within relation to ballistic function and within context of expected/applied use. To stop a person who is trying to harm me mortally.
JHP in .380 makes little functional sense when it's known that to start as a given that you're firing from a short barrel 2 inches or even less AND at that running sized down casing that has 2MM less case length and thus less/lower powder capacity.

.380 ACP aka 9x17MM Kurz

Image source as rehosted - http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd380acp.jpg

9x19MM Luger or Parabellum aka '9MM'

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum


Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_ACP

The difference in case capacity between 9x17 and 9x19 is just less than 11% (!).

That may not sound or seem like a big number to some folks but consider that differential is all powder. Powder which provides the horsepower that pushes and powers the projectile down and out the barrel as through air across distance, which itself is friction and energy reducing in real time, as to impact the BG be he naked or clothed.
Yes 380 ACP projectiles are typically lighter in grains than 9MM but that is only to compensate for it having out the gate bottom line significantly less horsepower as when compared to 9MM all things being otherwise equal, apples to apples.

Not trying to be argumentative here nor quibble over minutae,but this math and data is important and major not minor facts of the matter as ultimately related to the subject; "Is .380 enough?"

All things being equal as based on what other _combat_ defense chambering options are readily available the answer clearly is no.
Even as there is the exceedingly and out side of averages Rohrbagh being squirt gun tiny and thus even easier to single purpose focus & goal conceal/pocket carry.
But as you note giving up hammer reliability, efficiency of handling (for persons who don have near child size hands/fingers) and all at the cost of reduced magazine capacity AND for all that a cost premium too....As a "compromise", to what is known and easily proven by math to be better and more efficient with higher probability of success toward reaching a 99.9% goal at performing the same task.

No thanks.

Betting on a reduced capability cartridge to be successful singulary as by volume of multiple shots fired from a magazine also of reduced capacity in order to save my life makes as much sense to me as going to sea with a life preserver/PFD that requires the wearer to assemble and/or self-inflate by hand pump upon use.

- Janq
 
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