Number of Rounds fired in Gunfight? - Page 5

Number of Rounds fired in Gunfight?

This is a discussion on Number of Rounds fired in Gunfight? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT Lots of people like that out & about. Yes Mitchell, and what you wrote about your client means something. It actually ...

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Thread: Number of Rounds fired in Gunfight?

  1. #61
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    Yes, Mitchell, and that means something :-

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Lots of people like that out & about.
    Yes Mitchell, and what you wrote about your client means something.

    It actually is a warning to all that the idea we all have that we will go for the gun may be very unrealistic. (Unlike Bruce21b's experience.)

    You laid out some pretty compelling ideas about precisely why a gun won't do you much good against an experienced criminal.

    That's one reason I knock myself out 3 days a week with H2H---guys like your client who can get too close and on you before you know what's going on and you can't get to your gun. Maybe with luck you'll get to fight to get to it, or fight to get to a knife or a spray. And then have to fight to retain them.

    Probably you'll just give 'em your wallet and hope to walk away. Harsh reality.

    My opinion, keeping in mind that I don't practice all that I preach, one should carry a primary and a secondary. A total of 10-20 rounds on you, and you are very very very unlikely to be lacking.

    One in the waist band, one in a pocket or (maybe???? ankle). Enough for all but the craziest of unusual situations. *

    *They happen of course. I still get chills thinking about the guy who went against a crazy drunk neighbor armed with a shotgun and almost emptied a 1911 doing it.


  2. #62
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    It's a special gun...

    They took a .380ACP, added 2mm to the brass and made it a THREE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY MAGNUM.

    Tosses a 124 grain bullet about 1,200 FPS.
    And what is the model number of this special gun?

    EDIT: 17, 19 or 26?
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yes Mitchell, and what you wrote about your client means something.

    It actually is a warning to all that the idea we all have that we will go for the gun may be very unrealistic. (Unlike Bruce21b's experience.)

    You laid out some pretty compelling ideas about precisely why a gun won't do you much good against an experienced criminal.

    That's one reason I knock myself out 3 days a week with H2H---guys like your client who can get too close and on you before you know what's going on and you can't get to your gun. Maybe with luck you'll get to fight to get to it, or fight to get to a knife or a spray. And then have to fight to retain them.

    Probably you'll just give 'em your wallet and hope to walk away. Harsh reality.
    I wrote it because it's the truth, and because people have a nasty tendancy of underestimating what they may face.

    The "punks", "gang bangers" and so forth are actually much more dangerous than many people would like to believe.

    By no means supermen, or very inteligent, but fit, cunning, experienced and don't have the same social restraints as you or I do.

    They may not have a snazy holster, a cool 1911 or a GED...but they do have a lot of skill at hurting people.

    Will a gun do very much against an experienced criminal?
    Well...on it's own - no.

    Combine it with a reality based traning program, and the answer changes.

    The harsh reality is the correct one. If you are ambushed, and you feel you can buy your way out of it, do it.

    No shame in doing the smart thing. I'd do the same.

    If your life is on the line...things change.

  4. #64
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    "And what is the model number of this special gun?

    EDIT: 17, 19 or 26?"

    zx9rcam,
    I believe he said it's a 19. It sounds like a 9mm to me, but I think Mitchell is unwilling to "disclose" additional information about his special gun. ;)

    I'm going to see what M. Ayoob has to say about shots fired, etc.
    CinSC

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    It's a Glock 18+2-1x1

    Only available for people who live in the World of Darkness. (If you don't know what that is, google it. Bonus points for anyone who still plays the the OWOD games...)

    What does it matter what I carry? Really?

    It's a gun. It holds bullets in the kind and quantity I deem it sufficient for myself.

    Make your own choices based on the information in your posession after evaluating such information to the degree you feel is consistant with your training.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post

    What does it matter what I carry? Really?
    Does not matter at all, I just saw Glock .380 & my Spidey-senses started tingling, lol....

    Then I saw the weight & FPS & wanted to verify you were jokingly refering to a 9mm.
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    I may actually have worked out how to get a Glock .380ACP into the USA kosher...

    If it works, well. Ka-CHING! for me.

    If not. Eh. Like I said, it's going to be done legal, so the only downside will be paperwork being denied.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I may actually have worked out how to get a Glock .380ACP into the USA kosher...

    If it works, well. Ka-CHING! for me.

    If not. Eh. Like I said, it's going to be done legal, so the only downside will be paperwork being denied.
    My understanding is that it didn't score enough "points" to make it into the States, & I don't "think" an NFA trust will help any, but I don't know....good luck & keep us posted.
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZX9RCAM View Post
    My understanding is that it didn't score enough "points" to make it into the States, & I don't "think" an NFA trust will help any, but I don't know....good luck & keep us posted.
    #1 It doesn't score enough points.

    #2 NFA trusts have nothing to do with it.


  10. #70
    JD
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    OK guys, do the math....


    Quote Originally Posted by ZX9RCAM View Post
    Where did you get a Glock .380......I was under the impression those were illegal in the States or something like that????
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    It's a special gun...

    They took a .380ACP, added 2mm to the brass and made it a THREE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY MAGNUM.

    Tosses a 124 grain bullet about 1,200 FPS.
    .380=9X17 + 2mm = 9X19, 9X19 = 9mm Luger etc.


  11. #71
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Hell, 9mm is just a hot .380.

    Ask anyone...

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
    FBI statistics have not changed in over 30 years. For the "average" gunfight;

    Average number of shots fired : Three shots

    Average distance between participants : Three feet

    Average time elapsed, first to last shot fired : Three seconds.

    The most carried handgun (on average ) is a five shot J-frame.

    It would appear that based on the FBI statistics, and my real world observations and experiences, that the average citizen is well covered by the capacity of a J-frame revolver..........unless you are storming beaches. Regards 18DAI.
    I would be VERY interested in seeing this substantiated...

    According to stats I found here: The Col Dave Grossman Debate - How Mistaken Is He?, the following are the stats for gunfights involving NYPD officers (and yes, I realize that police shootings aren't 1:1 relative to civilian shootings, but the numbers are relevant if not perfect).

    In 1990, the average number of rounds an officer fired in a gunfight was 4.4. In 2000, it was 6.9. Note that this is ONLY rounds fired by the officer, and doesn't include rounds fired by BGs. The same data indicates that from the 60s through 1981, the number of rounds fired DID stay about the same, 2 - 3 rounds per officer.

    It is important to note that this data, unlike many other compilations of shooting statistics, takes out suicides and AD/NDs, which skew the numbers lower. That said, no study that I know of takes out those instances where the GG (be it cop or other) is killed before shooting, or before he could stop the threat. This, of course, also skews the numbers down in that it WOULD have taken more rounds to finish the fight, but (unfortunately) the GG was taken out of the fight before he could shoot enough to save him/herself.

    Draw whatever conclusions you like, but to say that 2-3 rounds is "good enough" is ENTIRELY a personal opinion based on the factors that the "chooser" has decided to focus on as most important. It can just as easily be demonstrated that 2-3 rounds is likely not enough, assuming you survive long enough to use the ammunition you have available to you...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Hell, 9mm is just a hot .380.

    Ask anyone...
    Yup......
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  14. #74
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    On average the gunfight will be over in X seconds.
    On average there will be X rounds fired.
    On average the range will be X feet or less.

    ON AVERAGE none of us will ever have to use our gun in a defensive shooting, but if we do, there goes the law of averages! All of that crap about “If I can’t get it done with 5 rounds, I’m probably in trouble anyway” is BS. You’ll feel differently if you find out that you’re fighting more attackers than AVERAGE and that it took more rounds than AVERAGE and you weren’t willing to carry an extra couple of ounces of ammo for a reload.

  15. #75
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    If your up against two or more attackers - who actually stick around and continue attacking you after rounds start being thrown, then your not likely to be around long anyway.

    Then I'll have to get the CSI folks bagging up all that extra ammo that you fellas didn't get to use.

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