May 31st, 2010 10:05 PM
The one or two times I have carried both my cary guns I have carried one on the strong side about 4:00 and the other about 9:00 weak side cross draw. The weak side holster would have allowed me to draw with my weak had if need be; yes, I tried and I could do so; not as quickly as I could stron hand either gun and at the time I did it I was a good 10 inches bigger in the waist so now it would be MUCH easier!! But thats another thread!!
May 31st, 2010 11:52 PM
I wish to carry 2 guns 1 for each hand perhaps. I currently carry my G22 or G27 IWB most of the time. However I have carried both OWB. I love my CBST for each firearm, but believe that one at 4:30is and the other on the opposite side would be awkward. I need access for a multitude of situations. What are your thoughts. I very much value your opinion Grady. Thanks for your input.
Originally Posted by grady
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid.
June 1st, 2010 12:09 AM
Here's what I've been wanting to try, by Desbiens Gunleather Desbiens Gun Leather
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry
June 1st, 2010 12:09 AM
Have Rhome make one of these for your 27!
Desbiens Gun Leather
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
June 1st, 2010 12:40 AM
uuumm shoulder holster!! lol Hope you find something that works!
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."-Einstein
June 1st, 2010 02:24 AM
Carry one in a shoulder holster & the 2nd one in a SOB holster, Work's for me.
June 1st, 2010 10:18 AM
I have been looking at the Desbians Covert Badger (above) myself and trying to decide between it and the modular Raven Concealment holster where I can put together a holster for my LCP (or G27 for that matter) and a mag carrier for a larger Glock mag. I like leather better than kydex (usually) but the Raven can be converted to be either OWB or IWB. The way I buy holsters, I'll probably end up with both.
June 1st, 2010 09:45 PM
I carry my primary iwb strong side and my keltec in my strongside pocket. I like the advantage of the pocket carry for a bug because everybody associates reaching behind your back or under shirt to drawing something other than your wallet...most people people assume it's a gun, especially if you go for it quick. With pocket carry, most people don't expect a firearm to come out of one, plus you can walk around with your hand on it. In addition, you can pull the whole "ok man I'll get my wallet out for you" trap which goes along with the former concept. Again, most people don't expect a firearm to come out of a pocket. That in itself is a good advantage for us. If something is to the point were you can't draw strongside and have to try to get to something weakside, the guy's already probably on you. Put a knife in your weakside pocket and protect your face or firearm with your strong hand. The only thing you should carry weakside is your flashlight/reload or both.
My two cents.
If you're going to carry one weapon, might as well carry two, because as the saying goes, "Two is one, and one is none."
"Liberals can decline or whine, but I will still carry and conceal mine." - Cold Warrior. Excellent quote good sir!
June 1st, 2010 11:18 PM
As you know, holsters are very subjective--what is great for one person may be horrible for another. But I'll give you my thoughts and biases on several options. Options are good: I have multiple ways to carry. No need to be limited to one or two ways.
Originally Posted by b1780
Some will say you should always carry the same way due to muscle memory, and so you don't reach for a gun that isn't there. There is some truth to that, but I don't take it to the extreme of never changing the way I carry. My life has far too many variables to be stuck with one way to carry. Could I get by in life with one pair of shoes for all occasions? Yes, but it'd be inconvenient at times, and wholly impractical at other times. So again, options are good. You may have to try several different options before you find those you like.
I note you really like your CBST, so I'll assume that will be your holster for your dominant hand. (If I'm wrong and you don't plan to use your CBST, I guess it doesn't really matter since you can mix and match any two ways that you like to carry two guns.)
Some options for carry of a second gun, in no particular order:
Shoulder holster, SpecGear Truss holster: SpecGear TRUSS Holster Tactical Belly Band Undercover Weapon System for Law Enforcement
This is a great holster with several advantages over similar shoulder holsters. The crossdraw Truss has a slightly reverse cant of the holster, allowing one to carry a gun with a larger grip than if the cant was neutral or forward.
This holster also has several mag holders with straps (4 in the one I have, but some may have less if the girth is smaller). It also has 2 wide pockets in front, perhaps for cuffs. I once concealed a P3AT in one of the wide pockets, and an XD9sc in the other, although the XD9sc printed a bit.
This holster is great for driving since you don't have to struggle to draw as you would if the gun was around your waist somewhere, either IWB, OWB, or SmartCarry.
A minor downside to the Truss is its thickness, in that it can be felt if someone touches it through your clothes. One of my wife's friends (who doesn't know I carry) put her hand on my back once when I was wearing the Truss. Even though I had a very thick cover shirt on, she still felt the Truss. Its construction is similar to those back braces you see, so perhaps that would be a good cover story if someone noticed it. At the Truss website it is shown being worn higher than a backbrace, but I suppose it could be worn lower. The straps are certainly long enough to wear it around one's stomach. I had to cut my straps off because they were so long.
I own a crossdraw Truss and am very happy with it. I think the strong-side Truss would be much more difficult to draw from.
I have carried a S&W 5906 in this holster with no problems as long as I had a large and somewhat stiff cover shirt, and the 5906 is a tad taller than your Glock 22. Your Glock 27 would disappear in this holster probably no matter what cover shirt you wore.
The Truss costs $60, but it is a fantastic holster, well designed, and extremely functional. It is a shoulder holster on steroids.
Deep Concealment Shoulder Holster
#234 DeepConcealment Shoulder Holsters
This is another option.
It is lighter and smaller than the Truss, but easier to conceal under thinner shirts (unless you get the XL--it is quite thick).
The holster has a slight forward (grip leaning toward your front) cant instead of the slight reverse (grip leaning toward your back) cant of the Truss, meaning your Glock 22 will be more likely to print with this holster versus the Truss. The Glock 22 might conceal, but not as well as in the Truss. I also believe this holster would conceal your Glock 27 easily.
The sizes available are:
I'm not sure what size you are, but if you're a 44-45", here are your options:
1. XLarge, and have a LOT of extra material to wrap around your chest, almost to the extent of the thicker Truss shoulder holster.
2. Large, and have it almost too tight to wear comfortably for an entire day.
If you're not in that range, then disregard that bit.
This is a basic shoulder hoslter with a holster and pockets for 2 mags, with no retaining straps for the mags. This is usually enough, so that's not really a con IMO.
At the link above, the price is $40. When I was pricing this holster a couple years ago, I think the price at most sources was $35, but somewhere I found it priced $5 cheaper. So if you look around, you might be able to find it a bit cheaper somewhere.
Both the Truss and the Deep Concealment are designed for either LH or RH draw, but they can be turned around and used for the opposite hand draw. The clips of the Truss and the velcro of the Deep Concealment would then be on the inside instead of the outside where they're supposed to be, but they will work.
I recommend wearing a t-shirt below either of these holsters. The Deep Concealment definitely irritated my bare skin, and IIRC so did the Truss.
One lesson learned the hard way: I don't recommend wearing sleeveless t-shirts with either of these. I tried that once for a day-long outing... as I was pulling away from the house, the edge of the wraparound piece had already worked its way up to the t-shirt armhole. I didn't have time to turn around and change t-shirts, so I spent the entire day swearing I'd never wear a sleeveless t-shirt with a shoulder holster again.
Both holsters can be used with tucked shirts.
SmartCarry - Concealed Gun Holsters
A lot of people who have never tried this tend to discount this method of carry. If I carried in a non-permissive environment and could only have one holster, this would be the one.
It is slow to draw while seated, but it can be quicker to draw than OWB with a cover shirt if one is standing. Many won't believe that statement. Those who own one, wear it as it was designed to be worn, and have practiced, would probably tend to agree with that statement.
The SC is designed to be worn low in front. If worn correctly, it is not pointing at your privates. When I wear mine, the end of the barrel is at the lowest point of the inner part of my pant's crotch, and pointing down. If any part of my privates are below the barrel, I'm not wearing it correctly.
The grip end tends to print just a bit unless one wears baggy pants or Docker-type pants with extra loose material just below the beltline in front. Tight pants are your enemy if wearing the SC. I suspect your Glock 22 would print unless your pants are baggy or loose in front.
The SC comes in several options:
Standard model, (RH or LH) which has a large pocket for a gun on either the right side or the left side, and a smaller pocket for a mag
Security model, (RH, LH, or ambidextrous) which has a large pouch behind the holsters, running the entire length and height of the holster front. I've stuffed a lot of things into my security pouch, including other guns. Once I stuffed a S&W 59 (an 18-round 9mm) and it's IWB holster into the security pouch. Yes, it printed a bunch, but fortunately I had a long cover shirt. Let's just say I urgently needed my waistband to be clear of any guns for a few minutes.
The security pouch adds almost no bulk to the holster, and it only costs $10 more. If the slight extra bulk doesn't bother you, IMO it's well worth the extra $10. The security pouch is also a great place to place your wallet or extra cash if you don't want to carry it. That's where my wallet goes when I jog. I also read of someone who carried speedstrips for their revolver in the security pouch.
Dealing with the grip printing:
1. As already mentioned, don't wear tight pants.
2. I heard of someone ironing those little iron-on reinforcements on the inside of their pants where the grip hits. This spreads out the sharp angle of the grip. I was in a hurry once and used duct tape. It worked. The downside to these methods is they need to be done to every pair of pants in which the gun prints.
3. One of the best methods I've found to reduce the grip print is to place the gun in the opposite side holster from my strong side. Example: I'm RH, but I ordered an ambidextrous holster which has two equal sized pouches. Rather than placing the gun in the RH side holster, I place it in the LH side holster, with the grip still positioned as it would be if I had placed it on the RH side. This places the grip closer to my zipper line. In every pair of pants I own, there is a natural bump on the zipper line, especially when I sit down. This helps to hide the grip bump, or eliminates it entirely.
Some people don't like the extra bulk of the SC in their pants. Some either cannot get used to the idea of a gun in their drawers, or they choose not to try. But the SC works for many.
If you do try the SC, the owner offers a 60-day money back guarantee. If you end up not liking it, you are only out a few dollars for shipping.
If you try it, try it hanging low in front and not wrapped around you like a belt. It is designed to go around your back normally, but hang down off your hip bones in front.
Oh, I almost forgot: when I first got mine, the band in the rear dug into my back. It's hard and has a sharp edge, plus it would tend to ride up my back during the day. I found it almost unusable.
I solved these problems by mismatching the velcro in the back, exposing about 1/2" of velcro at the top facing out. I then brought the rear band of my underwear up inside the SC, turning down about 1/2" of my rear underwear band and affixing it to the SC's velcro. (It wasn't necessary to do anything with the sides and front of my underwear--they stayed as normal).
This solved the problems of the band digging into my back, as well as the band riding up during the day.
In addition, when I use a stall in public, I slide my pants, the SC and underwear down as one unit, never separating them. In doing so, the gun is hidden in my pants. It is so well hidden that no one in any adjacent stall or out front could see the gun. It is completely hidden if I do it right. Yet it is still available to draw if needed.
Well, that's more than you wanted to know about my bathroom habits, but I figured I'd answer it before the question came up.
Thunderwear: a product similar to SmartCarry. I have no experience with this item, but I doubt it is better than the SC.
There are some cheap knockoffs of the SC (I'm not talking about the Thunderwear, but rather some others that I can't remember the names). I'd avoid them like the plague. I did read of an accidental discharge one guy had because the material was not thick enough to block an intrusion into the trigger area. Bad news.
For me, it's the SC (or possibly the Thunderwear based on reviews, but since I have no complaints about the SC, I have no reason to try the Thunderwear).
This probably isn't a viable option for you due to the size of your Glock 27, but on a few occasions I pocket carry a S&W 6906 which is about the same size or larger than the G27. But I only own a few pants that have deep enough pockets for a gun that size.
Some say this is the fastest draw available when standing. I never tried a true appendix carry because I'm not comfortable with a gun pointed at my femoral artery. Yes, the gun won't fire unless the trigger is pulled. Tell that to all the LEOs who have shot themselves in the leg.
Another advantage of this method is that the gun will also be available to your other hand. Yes, you would have to do a reverse-hand draw, or something like that, but it is doable.
Retention is very good in this position. It is easier to defeat an attempted gun grab to the appendix area than if the gun is on the hip or behind the back.
Extreme-cant appendix carry
An option for those who like the benefits of appendix carry but don't want the gun pointed at them.
A perceived downside is the draw isn't quite as simple as a straight appendix draw. One must pull a bit toward the body centerline in addition to pulling up during the draw. But as one who has carried this way for a couple years, any delay is negligible, probably in the microsecond range. This draw is second nature to me now, and is my preferred method of carry when conditions allow. Compared to a straight-drop appendix draw, when my draw is completed, the gun is more on my centerline than over toward my draw side. I don't see it as an issue.
This extreme forward cant increases the retention factor, as evidenced this Spring when a LEO had to try 3-4 times to disarm me from the rear before he was successful. Had I been using a straight-drop holster, he likely would have removed the gun on the first try.
But I'm the only one I know who carries this way, so maybe I just haven't seen the light yet.
I have carried 1 gun in the appendix area, right side, and another gun around 0830 for my LH. This is the mirror opposite of something you might consider with your chosen strongside position of around 4:30, and carrying your G27 opposite appendix carry. It all depends upon your build, though. Carrying 2 guns around the waist is easier if one's midsection is smaller than the chest, or if one has wide shoulders.
Just remembered this: A few months back I criticized the Deep Concealment shoulder holster because I had a mag fall out on two separate occasions. I thought it was because there was no strap on the mag holder.
Then the other day I dropped a mag from my Truss shoulder holster. I grabbed it and went inside the house I was visiting. I immediately went to the bathroom for a check, and found the mag strap was still in place. Then I realized the mag had been forced out while I was driving due to the grip of my gun. When I sat down, the grip went high and drove the mag out.
That's the only downside I have found to carrying with extreme forward cant in the appendix area. So now if I were to carry that same combination of appendix and shoulder holster, I wouldn't load a mag in that one particular mag slot. But I have so many other combinations that I haven't used this combo since I dropped that last mag.
Options I havent tried:
Belly band, although that is very close to the Deep Concealment shoulder holster mentioned above. In fact, I have a friend who cut the shoulder straps off his Deep Concealment shoulder holster and now uses it like a belly band. He likes it a lot.
I'm guessing a slim waist coupled with a heavy gun might cause the belly band to slip down, but I really don't know since I have no experience with the BB. Conversely, perhaps a larger midsection might help keep the BB from falling down. Again, just a guess.
Lots of guys swear by this, especially those who drive a lot. The cautions I've read include not going cheap, and making sure your pants are compatible, meaning they aren't too tight or too short.
From what I've read, very comfortable, but carrying in this way requires a good cover shirt. If you are in a tucked environment, this won't work.
Kangaroo AM model shoulder holster
This item is 100% cotton so apparently it can be worn next to the skin with no irritation. Supposedly fits any medium frame auto, so it probably won't work for your G22 but may work for your G27. $33
Good luck on your search. I understand the desire to find out what works right away in order to save money and time... but it usually doesn't work out that way. I have 3 boxes of holsters, bought 3 more holsters last month, have 2 holsters in the mail, and another being made right now.
I keep telling myself they are investments. And I see them that way. When I have a surprise requirement to go someplace different, with perhaps different clothing requirements and/or different security parameters, I'm very glad I have many options and have tried them out ahead of time.
I take every opportunity to increase my concealment abilities. Each time I go out with my wife for a shopping trip I don't really enjoy, I use it as a chance to hone my concealment abilities or to try something new.
Recently I have been trying out new holsters around the house, in addition to what I normally carry. Since my wife isn't fond of me carrying (but I'm going to anyway, at least until Hell freezes over a couple times), I use my home life to practice my concealment abilities. Yes, in her heart she knows I'm carrying, but I give her the opportunity to not be confronted with it. It works for us.
Good luck in your search, and may you spend less money on holsters than I have.
June 1st, 2010 11:27 PM
And THAT'S how it's done..
Very valuable information, grady.
Thanks for sharing.
What we've got here is failure to communicate.
June 2nd, 2010 01:49 PM
Grady, I appreciate your effort on this.
Right now, I am using an Ace tuckable IWB with either a CZ82 or a P64 carried at 4:00 or so which is okay, but not my ideal situation.
I have looked at the Smartcarry (aka thunderware). And considered it.. I do like the waterproof/sweatproof lining.
The Truss website no longer shows a video of the draw sequence
And generally, belly bands just don't "do it" for me.
I work out of doors often in just a tee shirt and shorts and sometimes both are soaked with sweat..
Finding a way to carry two weapons, when neither is a great weapon (for concealability, only), has got to be hard... Good luck to the OP...
Me, I choose SD carry handguns for concealability, and the CZ pushes that envelope a bit ...
One other question, for those who use belly bands/trusses... how do you practice the draw IRL... how many shirts do you tear up to assure your proficiency in getting to your weapon in a <1.5 second window?
June 2nd, 2010 02:03 PM
Wow. I think Grady's post should be a sticky. Perhaps with the options he hasn't tried filled in by someone who has.
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June 2nd, 2010 11:59 PM
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