CCW and Draw Speed

This is a discussion on CCW and Draw Speed within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was going to initialy address this issue as a response to forum-member Spud's concealed clothing question, but figured it would get more responses as ...

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Thread: CCW and Draw Speed

  1. #1
    Member Array Mark Garrity's Avatar
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    CCW and Draw Speed

    I was going to initialy address this issue as a response to forum-member Spud's concealed clothing question, but figured it would get more responses as it's own thread.

    Everything is a compromise. As concealment goes up, accessability goes down. So I'm just curious, those of you that wear Smartcarry or belly bands or the Kramer Confidant T-shirts as your primary carry, what is your draw to first shot speed like?
    I do alot of my personal training on a timer. I have been in enough situations on-duty that I know in the real world things go down and dirty in micro-seconds. A close quarters confrontation is very dynamic. I personally refuse to use any carry system or mode of concealment that will not allow a first shot in less than 1.5 seconds from concealment. I just highly doubt that is possible with some of the conealment methods, and I know for fact allowing 1.5 seconds is being overlly generous. It should probably be more like 3/4 of a second.
    I know all trainers will tell you that the first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun". Well, I think that should be more specific "Have a readily accessible gun". Just having a gun on your person is not enough if you cannot get to it in the time frame needed. I know there is a certain level of personal security felt from wearing a pistol. I have been in training classes where everyone is drawing from concealment, and have emptied a mag and reloaded before others have even brought their gun on target when the command to fire is given. Now I know at these classes everyone comes there with their own varying skill levels and personal response time, but if it is taking that long to access the gun in response to threat then there may be an issue with the concealment method. But I guess it is a matter of what is more important to the individual, very deep concealment with a longer draw-time, or still well concealed but with a quick first shot.
    Thoughts???
    Last edited by Mark Garrity; August 1st, 2006 at 01:59 PM.
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    Senior Member Array slimjim's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree more. I know people who carry their guns around in briefcases and think they are appropriately able to protect themselves/family. Chances are they will be laying on the floor before they can even open their case. This brings up another point of having one in the chamber ready to go. I also know people who do not carry w/ a chambered round. According to FBI stats, 55% of gunfights occur within 5 feet. That may mean you may need to fend off a criminal with one hand and fire with another. I would hate to have to chamber a round or go "searching" for my gun when the sh-t hits the fan. Another reason why I opt to not use tuckable feature. At work I carry in pocket, otherwise IWB/OWB strong side whenever possible.

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    Member Array steve_db's Avatar
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    thanks for the thread.
    personally, IWB is my mode of carry. Unfortunately, this mode of carry is inherently slower than an optimal OWB.
    The .75 second it takes me to just get to my piece has already consumed a critical portion of draw time.

  5. #4
    Member Array Mark Garrity's Avatar
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    slimjim,
    Excellant points! Any defensive firearms technique that requires the use of two hands should be thouroughly examined and weighed before relying on it. And I constantly discourage against off body carry and addressed the woman's purse carry isue here in another thread.

    steve db,
    I actually carry and recommend IWB. With practice it can be just as fast as OWB. Using the same cover garment, there is no appreciable difference in my draw times using a pancake holster OWB or carrying IWB.
    "He who makes things with his hands is a laborer, he who makes things with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who makes things with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
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    I am somewhat fixated by this subject and so carry is all but always OWB with an easy sweep cover garment.

    A wedding on Saturday was a rare exception and there I had my R9 in pocket - one advantage being of course having hand on gun any time, with nothing obvious to show it.

    If really pushed to deep conceal then I would know draw time was going to be well compromized - the only solution to that - if in fact a solution at all - is upping situational awareness to max, and then some.

    I would choose from an easy draw, even tho I am hardly the fastest guy on the block - to present such that I can start ''zippering'', all the way from one hand close retention right thru to complete two handed, arms extended.

    Just maybe, in deep concealement circumstances I might change to a revo for the benefits of being able to shoot from within the containment - whether fanny pack or whatever. I would train any lady shooter who just has to purse carry - to keep this in mind as an option.
    Chris - P95
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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Not being an LEO I must balance accessability with concealability. I can't wear my gun open on my hip. I do practice drawing from various concealed positions and with various holster types, and of course some are faster than others. What I have to rely on is my situational awareness helping me to know in advance when trouble is approaching. Hopefully I won't have to be in a fast draw contest as a result but will at least have my hand on my gun in advance.
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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Out of habit i normaly carry iwb @ about 3:30 or so , but since i am no longer LE presentation speed really does not concern me much . As a citizen ccw I wont be participating in any " high noon " cluster***ks . Situational awareness , and masking my movements via cover , or line of sight should serve me fine . Oh and via a bud holding a stopwatch this fat tired old rancher still comes in at roughly 1.25 sec from an audable signal , It is good to know the skills are still there needed or not lol .
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    IWB or front pocket or sometimes inside my coronado leather vest. I want to be able to grab the gun w/ only one hand. Only time off body is when it is in my safepacker inside the house.

    I did see one video clip from a Lenny Magill DVD production. It looked like an OLD clip of some Asian guy who had the gun hidden in the same position of a smart carry. He drew it EXCEPTIONALLY fast!!!! Looked like he went to "adjust" himself w/ left hand (probably pushed the gun above the pants from the muzzle) and then drew.

    Anyone seen the video I am talking about? It was extremely impressive.

  10. #9
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    I can consistantly do 1.5 seconds to presentation from a shoulder rig but, I could not do that without the Alessi "pull through" holster which has no conventional retention strap.
    A standard firearm retention strap will really slow things up.

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    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Slightly off on a tangent

    I make the compromise and carry IWB. I can still get it out and fire in well under 1.5 though. However, going that fast runs the risk of snagging.

    If I do the 'correct' method of clearing a T shist when carrying IWB, (grabbing the bottom corner of the cover garment on the weak side with my support hand and lifting up to my strong-side shoulder - very effective but slow) I doubt I could make the first shot in 1.5.

    Also. not to go too far off on a tangent, but I believe it relevant to the thread, but keeping your gun in the center glovebox of the car is also making big compromises to accessibility. It takes way too long to flip the cover open, reach in and get the weapon.

    I keep mine in a bag on the front seat which is open at the end (has to be concealed even in the vehicle in TX). Can grab it in no time.

  12. #11
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Great thread, Mark. Personally, I consider 1.5 seconds (not just a first shot, but a first HIT) to be outside max. Gunfights just happen too quickly. Granted, situational awareness should allow you enough time to react, in the real world sometimes stuff happens in a way that you just did not see it coming.
    This subject is my primary reason for despising "tuckables"- they are just too slow, and most require two hands to draw.

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    Well, a tuckable if you have no other choice...but, way too slow.

    The Confident shirt STRIKES OUT BIG TIME for realistic self defense. For deep cover of an emergency BUG but, good for nothing else.

    Some guy on another forum said he got his draw time down to 7 or 8 seconds with a Kramer shirt...guess what? In a deadly confrontation he is dead but, just doesn't know it yet.

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    BTW: I draw my quickest from 3:30-4:00 OWB covered by an oversize "T"

    The shoulder rig is my personal compromise because it's well adapted to my lifestyle & my surroundings which are normally extremely low likely threat.

    The Alessi style rig makes it a better location of carry than it normally would be.

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    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    Personally, I consider 1.5 seconds (not just a first shot, but a first HIT) to be outside max.
    Excellent point!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Garrity
    I personally refuse to use any carry system or mode of concealment that will not allow a first shot in less than 1.5 seconds from concealment. I just highly doubt that is possible with some of the conealment methods, and I know for fact allowing 1.5 seconds is being overlly generous. It should probably be more like 3/4 of a second.
    A time standard alone is meaningless. A solid hit to the torso in 1.5 seconds at 25yards is good. A hit peripheral hit to the hand at 3 feet in 1.5 seconds is not. Time needs to be coupled with a target size and distance in order for there to be a meaningful standard.

    My personal standard is 1.5 seconds at 10 yards into the A-zone of an IPSC target. From an OWB at 3:30 I am ~1.2 seconds.

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    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    OKShooter I'll take issue with your comment and agree with you. The Kramer Confidant holster SUCKS. Plain and simple (thus we agree). However a good quality t-shirt holster does not strike out. The agency I work for is the best shooting law enforcement agency in the country. Our standards are the thoughest of any and a high number of us use a quality t-shirt. Yes a t-shirt holster is a deep carry rig, but I will place time on time against the vast majority of concealed carry folks on the range. I routinely put two rounds down range from a t-shirt holster in under 1 second. Big difference between some folks who have "tried" a t-shirt holster is just that, they tried it. I have built my wardrobe around this meathod of carry and use the rig when on the range and conducting simunation training. My shirt buttons have been modified so that I dont have to rip buttons. Just as any savy gun packer practices with their rig, I draw from concealed atleat 20 times a duty day, and have done so for the past number of years. This rig may not work for you, but dont trash it. It fits a need. Some folks just simply are not in the position to walk around with a "I'm packing a gun" vest on, or would loose their jobs if they wore their shirts un-tucked. Am I faster with my Milt Sparks? Oh yes, but not by much. (FOLLOWING COMMENTS ADDED Just another point. We're required to place a single shot in 1.65 seconds from concealed carry COLD and a miss during training means a NQ and a NQ means possible suspension or termination.

    I'll jump off my soap box now, and BTW I still love ya (as a brother in arms).

    Steve
    Last edited by fed_wif_a_sig; August 1st, 2006 at 08:54 PM.
    Steve
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