Raven holster

This is a discussion on Raven holster within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Speaking of Raven holsters, I just got email saying mine was shipped today! Yippy!...

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  1. #16
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    Speaking of Raven holsters, I just got email saying mine was shipped today! Yippy!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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  3. #17
    Member Array yankeeman's Avatar
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    Congrats barkn! I still have 3ish months. Let us know what you think.

  4. #18
    Member Array thephanatik's Avatar
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    My Crossbreed was a little loose for my liking, but it does fit much snugger when its on the belt. I still wanted it a little tighter though, 5 minutes with a hair dryer and a little pushing around the trigger guard and it was just how I wanted.
    Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. - Rule #23 in the USMC rules for gunfighting.

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    A little heat from a hair dryer and adjusting the Kydex around the pistol's ejection port will snug your Raven's tension right up. I had to do that with my Super Tuck and it turned out perfect. I will also second the statement that you need to belt that holster on and then check tension again, it may be fine when on your hip. I ordered a Kydex pancake rig from Personal Security Systems identical to the Raven. It cost about $25 less and arrived in two month's. The Magpul guy's who shot their excellent video's using Raven holster's gave that company quite the reputation and product wait time for their consumer's. While Raven builds an excellent product they are certainly not the only company doing so, just the most popular.

  6. #20
    New Member Array RCSMichael's Avatar
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    First, I need to ask everyone to stop talking about breaking out heat guns and hair dryers to “fix” the holster. The Phantom is a modular Kydex pancake, and is designed to provide proper retention on the body. This is achieved by allowing the holster to flex slightly around the contour of the waistline when your belt is cinched down.

    Every week, we have to “un-fix” holsters for guys who did the same “shake test” when they received their new Phantom, decided it was “too loose” (without even putting it on and trying it), and heated up the Kydex around the trigger guard and mashed in a divit to give it more retention. Then when they finally did put on their holster and try it, they could hardly get the gun out because they failed to account for the fact that the belt tension actually applies tension to the holster itself.

    The “shake test” doesn’t test anything pertinent to the holster’s performance. It would be like buying a set of new tires for your car, and then doing a “traction test” that involved you dragging the un-mounted tires around on your driveway by hand, and declaring that they didn’t grip well enough to work on your car

    Holster retention is a subjective trait. We set the holster with what we feel is the best blend of solid retention and quick access, but recognize that each end user may have a different preference. Additionally, the shape and circumference of the shooter’s waistline, stiffness of belt, and how tightly he cinches his belt can affect the retention.

    JGglock-

    I’d like to address a few points you raised:

    I emailed them the other day and FINALLY 2 days later today I get a response
    You emailed us on SUNDAY night, at 5:47PM. Monday was Labor Day (a national holiday). You received a response on Tuesday at 2:17PM. That means you had a response to your email in just SIX BUSINESS HOURS.

    Here is your email to us:

    On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Wxxxxxx X Rxxxxx <WxxxxxxRxxxxx@comcast.net> wrote:
    I would like to start with sayying i am not dissapointed with my holster but i do have some concerns and who better to ask then you ...I just received my holster which is for a G17/22 with a tlr2 and i am concerned with its grip on the firearm, when i place it inside it doesnt seem to get a secure grip and it takes little effort if im holding it upside down and give in a shake test for it to fall out, Maybe there not made to hold it that tight because how often will i find myself upside down getting shaken up ?, Ive watched many videos and payed close attention , most seem to have that click in sound just like the previous holster i had for it without the light and many friends holsters as well and i watched videos where there raven holsters were able to be violently shaked up and down and it would not fall out, Mine ....kind of has the click but not as much as i would think it should ?....Im not a prfessional holster person and i have not had time to talk to my FFL about his which was the person who swore to his and got you my bussiness, i heard somwhere that most of teh grip is on the tlr2 ligth for this holster ...mine is a tlr2s which you do not have listed but the diminsions are the same however maybe that is the problem ? Thankyou for taking the time to read this and getting back to me when you have the time to adress this.
    And here was Tom’s response:

    from Gear Info gearinfo@ravenconcealment.com
    to Wxxxxxx X Rxxxxxx <WxxxxxxxRxxxxxx@comcast.net>
    date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:17 PM
    subject Re: Inquiry from Raven Concealment Systems
    mailed-by ravenconcealment.com


    Hi Wxxxxxx,

    The function of a holster is to hold your pistol securely and allow easy access when/if you need it. If your holster is performing those two tasks, it is doing its job.

    The "shake test" really proves nothing about real world forces being applied to the holster. Why people continue to do this in videos....we don't know.

    Your holster sounds well within spec.

    Regards,

    Tom
    well I'd say if your holster won't hold the pistol upside down then its not holding it securely to yor belt you think??? It might just be me but I think if it will come out upside down that easy then it would come out easy if your running or doin other things alike?
    As I explained above, and as Tom attempted to explain in his email to you, your assumption is incorrect.

    They said they'd be glad to have it back for adjusting?!?! Yea that's what I want to do is give you my holster back for another month that took you 20 friggin weeks to build!!!!
    In your email, you acknowledged that you are not very knowledgeable about holsters. Tom and I have tried to educate you on to the nuances of the Phantom LC, and why your “test” was not a good way to judge whether or not the holster would work for you. You didn’t like that answer. We also offered to adjust the holster for you at no charge.

    Rather than respond to Tom’s email, you have chosen to come to an internet forum and express to the whole world that you are unhappy with the product you received. So what exactly would you have us do?? We have attempted to educate you on how our holster works. We have explained that retention is a preferential trait, and that if you would prefer tighter retention, we would be happy to make that adjustment for you.

    On top of that, you assume that it will take another month to get your holster adjusted. All holsters that come back for adjustments are adjusted and shipped back out within three business days. Respectfully, I would like to submit that perhaps a good portion of the anger you seem to feel is occurring simply because you have made a series of assumptions and are unwilling to listen to any fact that doesn’t support those incorrect assumptions.

    At this stage, the ball is in your court. I am willing to talk with you on the phone to better explain how and why our holster performs the way it does. I am willing to adjust your holster at no charge if you still feel that you would prefer more retention. And failing that, I invite you to return the holster for a full refund. If there is something beyond that I can do, here is your chance to say what that might be. But since you have taken a simple customer service matter to the public forum, I suggest we resolve it here as well.

    We take great pride in the holsters we make, and we stand behind them 100%. If something is not right with your holster, we will make it right.


    Regards,

    Michael Goerlich
    Owner
    Raven Concealment Systems, LLC
    pbmagnet, OD*, Reccol and 1 others like this.

  7. #21
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    I will say the holster I referred to in Post #14 & 16 arrived in 3 days after I was notified of shipping.

    It is a neck holster for my LCP. It is my second Raven Concealment holster (both for the Ruger LCP). The first one I got a couple of years ago. Also for the LCP but also holds two magazines for my G-23 primary weapon. Both are excellent holsters and I couldn't be happier with them.

    The photo below is a stock photo of the one I got a couple years ago. It holds my BUG (LCP) and two magazines for my G-23. The rig is worn on my weak side.

    Again, I knew the wait time going in but I liked the first one so well, I ordered the second one which arrived the other day. No complaints here.

    Excellent work for the guys at Raven! No doubt I'll be ordering other holsters from them for other guns in the future.

    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    I am a consumer. I buy things from people and I hold GREAT value in customer service. I have a LOT of patience when someone makes a mistake & GENUINELY tries to fix it. I often have too much patience when I can clearly see that the person is honestly struggling to make it right & is hitting roadblocks. I do not, however, have patience with bad customer service. I have not shopped at Best Buy in well over 10 years as a result of one really bad run in with a manager. I will never shop at Toys 'R Us/Babies "R Us, etc, again (and I worked for them for three years) as a result of poor customer service from a floor manager, store manager, district & regional managers. Real customer service is not that you never make mistakes, but rather, how eloquently you recover when you DO make a mistake.

    JGglock
    After waiting 6 - 9 months for $140+ holsters (the 9 month wait at $140 is sitting in a box and is no longer used btw) I really have no sympathy. Try to order a few of the high end custom jobs... Del Fatti leather is currently working on holsters from October 2010 and is no longer taking orders so they can catch up. Ever order from Milt Sparks? September 1st they were starting on orders from April 2011. Sometimes you have to wait (and pay) for quality.

    They offered to make it right. Take advantage of that or don't, but remember, if you do not, then coming here & whining about it makes you a hypocrite.

    Mr. Goerlich,
    Your client comes here to complain & maligns you on a forum. You then come here to refute his whining? You share documents publicly that he sent you privately? I know he paraphrased & made his wait seem longer than it was in a business sense, but does that make it ok for you to do the same thing back? That was pretty childish. I would dare venture to say, more childish than the OP since you are supposed to be a professional & he is just the guy who sent you an order and (in my opinion) was a lousy customer that I would not want anyway. Coming here to state that you were here to make it right & stand behind your product would have been the proper thing to do... Retaliating really does not reflect well.

    The advice you posted could be remedied by doing what several other kydex holster companies do (ie: Comptac/Minotaur) and include a slip of paper with care instructions including that you should not use the "shake test" and why, and a disclaimer that heat-guns are not the best way to "fix" your product & that you will assist over the phone or remedy any issues if the holster is shipped back to you. I would also include said information as a "do you accept the ordering terms" check box on your web-site in order to save yourself the liability when some pain in the kiester, know-it-all customer decides to "fix" their holster and screws it up. They checked the box that says they read not to use a heat-gun after all...

    The bulk of your post was pretty good, but, to be frank, posting the e-mails from JGglock was pretty uncool from a consumers perspective. Regardless of how much of a bonehead he was, that just was not right.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Airing out grievances on an open forum hardly ever works. Mainly it embarrasses one or both parties because one or both eventually realizes what was written and irreversible was out of line and unnecessary.

    Resolve it man to man and away from here. If it can't be resolved with a replacement, refund, or a satisfactory fix, then by all means give your honest review and/or opinion.

    Don't come to an open forum hoping others will take your side and justify your anger.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    And I'll add this.

    I have 2 custom leather rigs that were quoted 6 months each at $90 each. Perfect fits. I knew it and waited. I have a custom pistol on order that was quoted 24-28 weeks. I have 7-11 weeks left. If it doesn't meet my expectations I will resolve it with the manufacturer. If I am willing to spend that much money on something and wait that long, I am willing to have it done right and to my satisfaction no matter how long it takes.
    nerdyvirgin likes this.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    I can understand Michael wanting to defend RCS's reputation on the forum after OP posted untrue or at least exaggerated inflammatory comments, maybe it was bad form to include private correspondence between RCS and OP. But, I have to say I appreciate that Michael on behalf of RCS seemed to do everything in his power to make the customer happy only to have said customer return to the public forum and bash RCS again, leaving out facts or miss representing them again. The economy is horrible and garnering a bad reputation would only make things harder on a business, especially an undeserved reputation, so I'll not hold this against RCS and can only say bravo for your attempt Michael, at trying to retain a negative and hostile customer who apparently got what he paid for even if it didn't stand up to his odd upside down shake retention test.

  12. #26
    New Member Array RCSMichael's Avatar
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    Mr. Goerlich,
    Your client comes here to complain & maligns you on a forum. You then come here to refute his whining? You share documents publicly that he sent you privately? I know he paraphrased & made his wait seem longer than it was in a business sense, but does that make it ok for you to do the same thing back? That was pretty childish. I would dare venture to say, more childish than the OP since you are supposed to be a professional & he is just the guy who sent you an order and (in my opinion) was a lousy customer that I would not want anyway. Coming here to state that you were here to make it right & stand behind your product would have been the proper thing to do... Retaliating really does not reflect well.
    357and40:

    I appreciate the point you raise, and I was careful to post in a respectful manner. I did not “do the same thing back.” I simply addressed the primary issue (i.e. retention of the Phantom holster) and then dealt with the other incorrect and/or exaggerated statements.

    When I post on internet forums, it is usually to either respond to a question about my company/products or to correct an inaccurate statement about my company/products. I do this for several reasons.

    First, I hope to help the person who made the post about RCS.

    Next, I aim to address any follow-up dialog that occurs among other participants on the thread.

    And lastly (but most importantly) my goal is to ensure that any discussion of my company has all sides of the story represented. The internet never throws anything out. Long after this thread has become inactive and drifted off the front page of this forum, search engines will comb the contents of this forum and perhaps return this very discussion as a search result when someone does a Google search for “Raven” or “Kydex holsters” or some other related search criteria. When that happens, I do not want someone to read the thread and mistakenly conclude that RCS products and service are somehow lacking.

    The reason that I posted the email exchange was simply to set the record straight. If I just make a statement on a forum, it is nothing but a claim. But if I provide documentation, it becomes a statement of fact. The discussion was regarding my company’s customer service. We were conducting a private business transaction with this customer. However, the customer chose to make this transaction public by posting here. Once public, the genie is out of the bottle, and I have no choice but to respond with the relevant evidence.

    It was not a retaliatory gesture in any way. I was careful to redact all personal information. I did not disparage him in any way. In fact, I would very much like to make him happy. That is why I asked so plainly: “What else would you have me do?”

    The advice you posted could be remedied by doing what several other kydex holster companies do (ie: Comptac/Minotaur) and include a slip of paper with care instructions including that you should not use the "shake test" and why, and a disclaimer that heat-guns are not the best way to "fix" your product & that you will assist over the phone or remedy any issues if the holster is shipped back to you. I would also include said information as a "do you accept the ordering terms" check box on your web-site in order to save yourself the liability when some pain in the kiester, know-it-all customer decides to "fix" their holster and screws it up. They checked the box that says they read not to use a heat-gun after all...
    This is sound advice, and is something already under development on our new website and packaging. We also are working on an entire series of YouTube videos that cover the various topics on our FAQ page, and hopefully this will prevent misunderstandings of this nature in the future.
    nerdyvirgin likes this.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    The reason that I posted the email exchange was simply to set the record straight. If I just make a statement on a forum, it is nothing but a claim. But if I provide documentation, it becomes a statement of fact. The discussion was regarding my company’s customer service. We were conducting a private business transaction with this customer. However, the customer chose to make this transaction public by posting here. Once public, the genie is out of the bottle, and I have no choice but to respond with the relevant evidence.
    Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Everything else I am good with...
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    They are right about that test being meaningless. The meaningful test is how it does when you are wearing it and the belt is snugging the holster against the gun.

    Jim

  15. #29
    Member Array TRUST8383's Avatar
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    Did the original poster ever actually try the holster on and tighten his belt down like he normally would wear the holster? And then check retention?? Maybe I missed it somewhere, but that would've been my first test. I have a raven phantom holster and the retention is perfect. My only complaint would be the wait time, but then again, i'm impatient. =P

  16. #30
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    I agree put the holster on and then make a decision it makes a big difference. The drop test is pretty much worthless no matter what the holster to me anyways. Lord I remember years and years ago at the birthing of IPSC you had to do a roll or at least get vertical to show that your holster would retain your weapon. I truly think that once you put the holster on you will have all the retention you need.

    I carry a handgun everyday in the armpits of the world and would use RCS products here if I knew I could get them back home when I was done but policies and procedures change daily and I would hate to leave good equipment behind and these guys make the best around.

    Since there are issues with the holster and you do not feel like sending it back I will purchase it from you site unseen for what you paid for it and I don't even own a G17or that light but now I have a reason to get one that is how much faith and trust I have in RCS and their products.
    Just send me a message on here or to tacman605@yahoo.com and work out the payment details if you would like to get rid of it and get something else.

    Michael keep up the good work I have a bunch of new toys will need kydex for will send you the list.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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