Over a week and no response from lobo.
This is a discussion on Not impressed with Lobo Gun Leather within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Over a week and no response from lobo....
Well, this has all been very interesting, hasn't it? I have tried to let this run its course without putting in my $0.02 worth, just to see how far it would go. Lots of definitive statements ("poor design", "bad snaps", etc) without much more than personal opinion to back them up. Now I will take my turn.
First, the OP placed an order and a product was delivered with a minor cosmetic flaw. When that was brought to my attention it was corrected and the product was returned within 48 hours of receiving it back. At that time the customer placed another order, and was given a substantial discount in light of his inconvenience on the first order.
The second order was produced and sent out, and a few days later the customer sent an e-mail consisting entirely of irrational and insulting rants. No questions having been asked, no response was called for.
Next, after he had made a number of modifications to the product, the customer fires off another tirade. Again, no questions or requests for consideration, simply an insulting diatribe.
In the meantime this post was brought to my attention, and I have reviewed it a time or two. During the same time period I was hospitalized twice, underwent emergency surgery, and got back to work.
Finally, the customer sent another rude message, to which I responded to seek his actual comments. After reviewing those I sent this reply:
Thanks for your comments.
The snaps I use are the Durable Dot brand, ligne 24 size, a standard of the industry for many years. As with anything manufactured in vast quantities, there will be some variations in holding power because of manufacturing tolerances, and occasionally a snap will break at the rivet set point. When problems arise I am always happy to change out a snap at no charge.
The belt loop attachment points are formed to the approximate contour of the waist with the holster worn in the intended position, just behind the strong-side hip (about 4:00 position) for the standard cant design (approx. 15 degrees butt-forward). If the holster is worn further forward the contour of the hip changes and the sharper angle formed acts like a fulcrum on a lever, forcing the holster further away from the body and increasing the stress at the belt attachment points significantly, while also negating the advantages of this holster cant for optimum drawing angle and minimizing the profile of the holstered weapon.
The snap-loops are attached using T-nuts and #6-32 machine screws, allowing the loops to be changed out for different sizes (making the holster more versatile), or replacement if the loops become excessively worn (extending the service life of the holster). The leather of the snap-loop acts as a washer between the snap stud and the T-nut, so that the screw may be tightened as required to compensate for predictable wear at these stress points. Tightening the screws periodically (or changing out the snap-loops if needed) requires only a Phillips screwdriver and a minute or two, and many customers have been pleased with this design.
I hope this addresses your concerns. I make hundreds of these every year and have received nearly unanimous positive feedback from customers, so I am confident in the overall design. I also realize that not everyone will be equally pleased with any holster from any maker, a fact that I have stressed at several points on the website.
Now, I've been doing this for some time (over 40 years) and I have dealt with a lot of customers. I offer 11 holster designs, with or without 4 common options, in 4 finish colors, for 137 different handguns, resulting in over 24,000 possible variations (not counting left-hand versions). I still receive requests for others almost daily.
I receive quite a few inquiries requesting information on what might be "the best holster" for this or that situation, handgun, etc. I always stress the simple fact that everything in holster design involves compromises among the four basic factors of comfort, accessibility, security, and concealability, and that whenever one factor is emphasized there will be compromises in the other factors. I always point out that only the customer can decide which factors are most important for their situation, needs, or preferences, so the choice is always up to the customer.
From time to time I get messages from those whom I jokingly refer to as "graduates of Holster Genius School", lecturing me on how things should be done, or describing their personal ideas about "the perfect holster" design, or demanding to know why I don't make things just like some other makers' products they happen to like. Some might be surprised at the ideas people come up with (IWB-OWB convertible, adjustable cant, adjustable ride height, strong-side/cross-draw, with integral triple magazine pouch/handcuff pouch/tactical light pouch/MP3 player/6-pack beer cooler, that can be worn with a bathing suit and no belt while concealing perfectly under a wife-beater undershirt), but I have just gotten used to them. Plenty of "tactic-cool" types and "gear-does" in the world, and every one of them has an opinion to share.
I regularly decline orders from folks whose ideas or expectations are clearly unrealistic. I frequently go to great lengths to explain what can be expected from each product, and what should not be expected, before a customer makes up his mind or places an order.
When there is a legitimate problem with a product (less than 1/2 of 1% of all production) I always do my best to correct that problem as expeditiously as possible. Sometimes that might involve a repair or adjustment; sometimes it is obvious that the customer cannot be satisfied by any means and I just make a refund. Occasionally a customer will use, abuse, alter, or intentionally damage a product and then start demanding some sort of action. Once in a while a customer might choose to start a public rant on a forum or blog, just trying to damage my business or reputation. These things happen, just part of being in business in the Internet era.
For years I offered a "no questions asked" return policy, which only lasted a short time after taking the business on-line. Some folks used that as a "try it before you buy it" plan, with one guy going through 3 different holster designs before I realized that he would never be happy with anything. At one point I received dozens of orders, all from a few contiguous zip codes, then had a couple of weeks of production work returned for refund all at once (which may have been an intentional act of sabotage, or maybe just some group's idea of a malicious joke on me). So I had to modify the return policy to a one-year warranty on materials and workmanship with repair, adjustment, replacement, or refund at my discretion. I will not accept returns of used merchandise, I will not accept returns in exchange for other products, I will not accept returns because "it just doesn't work for me", "it isn't what I thought it would be", "it just isn't comfortable for me", or any of the thousand other reasons that some people come up with when they decide that they just want something different than what they decided to buy. I also refuse to be extorted by those who demand something under threat of trashing me on-line.
I've been carrying a defensive sidearm for well over 40 years, including two combat tours in Vietnam and 24 years as a working cop. I have used just about every kind of handgun and holster there is, some of which have worked out well while others have not worked out so well. That is the simple truth of the matter; there is no "perfect holster" any more than there is a "perfect handgun" for every user or circumstances. If there were there would be only one handgun made, and only one holster for that handgun. In the real world just about everyone will try a number of things before settling on one (or a few) for their personal use on a regular basis.
In that same real world my little company continues to fill 1500 to 2000 orders every year, shipping to all 50 US states and 26foreign countries so far, for customers in law enforcement, sportsmen, and private citizens requiring the means for comfortably carrying a defensive weapon discreetly, and well over 99% of all customer feedback is positive.
I'll settle for that.
Very good response. And the gunfighter credentials are impressive, and yet when being an astronaut doesn't qualify someone as a shuttle designer, neither does being a gunman create good design skills.
As the originator of the snap comment, I refer you to my newbie post titled "Long-time pro holster designer/maker in the House" in Feb of this year. Good design goes beyond emulating others' designs, because that's copying history and perpetuating others' mistakes. Instead, good design comes from knowing and leapfrogging the past; and if the marketplace agrees with your result, then commercial success can follow.
Red (Richard) Nichols
Holster designer-maker since 1958
I care not if a man will open a door marked Knowledge. He can choose for himself. It's enough for me that the door is there.
In short, I will put my design skills on the line with any maker, anywhere, any time, even though I am neither an astronaut nor a shuttle designer. All I do is gun leather (serious equipment for serious business, since 1972).
As far as commercial success is concerned, I am satisfied with a level of about 30% of all orders coming from repeat customers. I am now concentrating my efforts on training my assistant to take over a successful business and continue a tradition of solid designs completed with first-class materials for our customers.
Red (Richard) Nichols
Holster designer-maker since 1958
I care not if a man will open a door marked Knowledge. He can choose for himself. It's enough for me that the door is there.
THE GRUDGE THREAD CONTINUES.
This morning I received a message from the OP, bluntly demanding to know why I had not responded to his earlier message. I replied that I had responded at length. The OP then found that message in his e-mails (indicating some problem with his equipment or program), then sent another rude commentary. Here is the text of my response:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and we share in the freedom to express our opinions as we may choose. As a noted member of Congress once remarked, we may be entitled to our own opinions but we are not entitled to our own facts.
The facts to this point are fairly simple:
1. You received an order with a cosmetic flaw, brought that to my attention, and it was promptly corrected.
2. You placed a second order, which was promptly completed and delivered.
3. After receiving your second order you then sent a message to me which, rather than express any wish to have your concerns addressed, was simply rude and intentionally insulting.
4. You proceeded to make modifications to a product, followed by a hatchet job post on an internet forum complete with staged photos purporting to show a defect created to support your opinions.
5. You have continued to send messages to me consisting of snide and insulting commentary, but completely devoid of any suggestion for resolution of any complaint you might have.
In short, when you have raised legitimate concerns I have responded with a good faith effort to address your concerns. When you have sunk to rudeness and insults I have not responded to your diatribes. Rather than learning that an open and honest approach was likely to result in an attempt to deal with your complaints, you have chosen to engage in a gutter-level campaign of insults and harassment.
Should you feel the need for further communications please be advised that I will reply to courtesy with courtesy, but insults and threats will be ignored.
If (or when) the OP chooses to engage in an adult and courteous discussion of his complaints I will be ready to respond in kind. As long as the OP continues to rely upon rudeness, vulgarity, and threats I will not respond at all.
This entire episode might be a good example of why so many forums discourage, or prohibit, grudge threads. It may also be an object lesson for others on methods to be avoided when attempting to resolve a perceived problem with a product.
Missed a couple days and look who shows up. Well lets see Ray claims I acused him of not responding but in fact lost his message. Well this isn't entirely true. I sent him 2 emails before he responded over a couple weeks then he responeded he didn't get anything. I sent another email to witch I didn't get a reply. This last email he did reply to and some how my phone didn't show it as new mail but it was in the string of mails.
In these last couple emails as well as his posts here I have been accused of heavily modifying the holster and doctoring the photos. All I did was change the snaps as they didn't hold from the get go, that's it just put new snaps on it. As for the photos they are not doctored in any way, this is how the holster came. Ray claims that the holster is to be worn at the 4 position. I wear it at 4 and still get the gap and it sets away from the body.
Ya I got a little hot when I got the email stating I modified the holster and doctored the photos but I never threatened Ray. I like how he broughe out the vet and cop card for what ever reason. Well I have spent 25 years working for the people of this country, many times my butt has been on the line but since I'm not a vet or cop its not important.
At this point I guess I am stuck with the holster and life is just to short to argue with Ray over this. I am not sure what he thinks I want as all I wanted was a couple good holsters to wear and a holster maker to give some money to. Guess the search for a holster continues.
Last edited by muddy; May 19th, 2012 at 10:58 AM.
I thought I would post a follow up to this thread and no Ray didnít make anything right. After my last post I tossed the holster in the holster bin and figured lesson learned I will get around to fixing it. Well about the first of July I was getting real tired of sweating through my MTAC holster every day and decided it was time to see if I could get this holster to work right as I did buy it for summer time carry. I had used the holster a couple times for a couple pistol classes so I knew the retention was good but the hanging off the belt drove me nuts as well as the belt loop screws coming loose. The screw would just be hanging by a thread or two by the end of the day.
First order of business was to secure the belt loops to the holster so they wouldnít twist. I did this by drilling 1/16 holes through the leather and hand stitching. I took care to miss the already stitched areas as not to cut any thread.
Next I moved the snap on the front belt loop a snap width lower to tighten up the loop to belt fit and stop some sag and flop. I left the tag long to make sure this is what I wanted and have just never cut it off. The back loop is a little saggy but I would be lucky to move it Ĺ a snap width so I just left it alone.
I have worn this holster every day since the mods (3 months) and itís held up well. The retention is good and the finish is a little scuffed but no more than expected. The leather does bleed stain well and most of my gray under shirts that I tuck into my pants behind the holster look like they have been used to wide up dog poop.
Not sure what the deal is with Ray at Lobo, it seems like he can build a good holster but the finer points just arenít right. From looking at pics and the discussion on this thread it appears that his OWB snap holster has sewn down belt loops but this one he sent me didnít and that was the main problem as well as the belt loops are just too big.
I'm sorry but I still can't get past the comment made on the first page... apparently it is somehow wrong of a shooter to wear a wilderness instructor belt- just the most common belt I see at the range! If my holster maker couldn't workout a way to make my belt work I'd have to change holster guys. Guess I'm lucky because I've never had a problem.
As far as the rest of the thread goes, it looks like the holster is of the quality you'd expect. Not perfect but you're not paying for perfect. It appears to be functional and that's really all that matters at the end of the day. It is just a shame that the issues between the two individuals had to be aired out in public rather than behind closed doors where this stuff belongs
"The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
- Lt. Col. Oliver North
All I can say is my experience with Lobo was excellent. I got an enhanced pancake with thumb break, OWB, for a 3" 686p about 3 months ago. The holster arrived in perfect shape and I don't think any other holster would hold or carry that revolver any better.
THIS IS A MISLEADING THREAD. I'm 2 years late but if you happen to have used search and come across this ... LOBO MAKES GOOD HOLSTERS.
I have never had an issue with a Lobo leather's construction and appearance. The molded shape of the pancake in the back is perfect because it lines up the slots for a belt to be parallel with the back of the gun which makes it comfortable to wear. With a belt there is no sliding around, it's designed that way, of course I wear leather but even with a non-gun belt the holster doesn't slide on the belt.
I have two Enhanced Pancake holsters from Lobo and have found then to be excellent quality. One for a Glock 19 and the same holster for my Kahr CW9. Both pistols are carried close and provide all day comfort. Mr. Cory sorry to hear through this thread that you were sick to the point of hospital. Stay well and thank you for an outstanding product!
"A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill