Holster design: does your maker use real pistols?

This is a discussion on Holster design: does your maker use real pistols? within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Red, Any particular lawsuits come to mind? I would like to read the transcript if possible. Thanks, Jeff...

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Thread: Holster design: does your maker use real pistols?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Haystacker's Avatar
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    Red,
    Any particular lawsuits come to mind? I would like to read the transcript if possible.
    Thanks,
    Jeff
    NRA Life Member

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  3. #17
    Member Array mdmorgan's Avatar
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    I am sorry, but I am going to have to call B.S. I really doubt that any company has ever lost or will ever lose a laws suit because they use blue guns. There are only two problems with blue guns. First is weight. it is true that blue guns do not have the same weight and balance as the real thing. It is not really an issue. All you need to know is really the center of balance of the gun. You don't need to own the gun to find this out. Something like a Glock 17 weighs like what half a pound more empty than loaded? By your logic should we all be using loaded firearms to do our design work? The only other REAL problem with blue guns is that sometimes the details are off. For instance, a lot of the 1911 blue guns are not cocked and locked. This really can be a problem. As luck would have it, blue guns are made of plastic and can be modified easily.
    I have never been in any of the big holster factories, and can't say what they may or may not use. I do know that for smaller companies blue guns are the industry standard. Now, I would like to point out that while I have and do use blue guns, I use the real thing more often than not. That being said I can see no difference in function from a holster made from a real gun or a blue gun. For a maker that has handled dozens of real guns, the difference between the real gun and the blue gun is meaningless. I have read your other posts, and while I have agreed with some of what you have written and disagreed with some of it; you are entitled to your opinion. However, claiming that just because a maker uses blue guns that his products are unsafe, is false to the point of being hostile.
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  4. #18
    Member Array Denster's Avatar
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    I believe what Red said was that the design of the holster needs to be proven with a real firearm not that they have to be made and formed with real guns. If I am correct in my reading comprehension then I would have to agree with him.

  5. #19
    Member Array mdmorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denster View Post
    I believe what Red said was that the design of the holster needs to be proven with a real firearm not that they have to be made and formed with real guns. If I am correct in my reading comprehension then I would have to agree with him.
    Ok, why? The few blue guns I have are within .004 inches of the real guns. I know I measured them. While it is true that the blue guns trigger doesn't move, it is there. You can tell if the leather is going to contact the trigger to not. Holster pushes the slide out of battery? So what. Even using a real gun this can happen when the holster comes out of the finishing process. This is a good thing. Leather stretches. You want a new holster to be a little "too" tight when brand new. There are short comings to blue guns, but they can all be worked around. I might even agree that using the real thing is better. The thing I take issue with is the premise that holsters designed around a blue gun are inherently unsafe. It's just not true.

  6. #20
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    I have modified a casting of a 1911 semi-automatic before for a holster maker by adding a real extended thumb safety that could be moved up to the ON position.
    That was pretty easy to do.

  7. #21
    Member Array mdmorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I have modified a casting of a 1911 semi-automatic before for a holster maker by adding a real extended thumb safety that could be moved up to the ON position.
    That was pretty easy to do.
    Yep.

  8. #22
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    While I prefer to use real working sidearms it simply isn't a realistic choice for many of us.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  9. #23
    Member Array Runt's Avatar
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    My holster maker use dummy gun's to mold. Before he release them for order he will wear them for proper function. If they need to be tweaked it will get it and retested untill he approve's.
    Remember, Life is not like a box of chocolate's.. It's more like a jalapeno pepper, because what you decide upon today can really burn your butt tomorrow..

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array rednichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdmorgan View Post
    I do know that for smaller companies blue guns are the industry standard. Now, I would like to point out that while I have and do use blue guns, I use the real thing more often than not. That being said I can see no difference in function from a holster made from a real gun or a blue gun. For a maker that has handled dozens of real guns, the difference between the real gun and the blue gun is meaningless. I have read your other posts, and while I have agreed with some of what you have written and disagreed with some of it; you are entitled to your opinion. However, claiming that just because a maker uses blue guns that his products are unsafe, is false to the point of being hostile.
    Now I understand why, in commenting on what I would have expected to be a limited practice by ANY holster makers, I seem to have poked a hornet's nest: you've 'outed' yourself as a maker who doesn't use real guns in design and field testing. That's your business, literally; and I'm simply warning buyers against such practice.

    My post can't be hostile because it was not directed at you in particular; but if the shoe fits, you can wear it.

    And take another look at my sig line; I'm not expressing my opinion among many -- I'm providing knowledge based on a depth and breadth of holster experience you can't match. When you catch up you can argue with me then, though I doubt it can be done now that the Golden Age has passed you by.

  11. #25
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
    Now I understand why, in commenting on what I would have expected to be a limited practice by ANY holster makers, I seem to have poked a hornet's nest: you've 'outed' yourself as a maker who doesn't use real guns in design and field testing. That's your business, literally; and I'm simply warning buyers against such practice.

    My post can't be hostile because it was not directed at you in particular; but if the shoe fits, you can wear it.

    And take another look at my sig line; I'm not expressing my opinion among many -- I'm providing knowledge based on a depth and breadth of holster experience you can't match. When you catch up you can argue with me then, though I doubt it can be done now that the Golden Age has passed you by.
    WOW ........... so anyone who doesn't have 50 years in the business needs to keep their mouth shut and listen? Sorry my friend, while no one disputes that you have a vast amount of experience it doesn't necessarily make you Omnipotent or opinion the only valid one.
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  12. #26
    Member Array mdmorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
    Now I understand why, in commenting on what I would have expected to be a limited practice by ANY holster makers, I seem to have poked a hornet's nest: you've 'outed' yourself as a maker who doesn't use real guns in design and field testing. That's your business, literally; and I'm simply warning buyers against such practice.

    My post can't be hostile because it was not directed at you in particular; but if the shoe fits, you can wear it.

    And take another look at my sig line; I'm not expressing my opinion among many -- I'm providing knowledge based on a depth and breadth of holster experience you can't match. When you catch up you can argue with me then, though I doubt it can be done now that the Golden Age has passed you by.
    I don't think your post is hostile to me, I think it is hostile to all small holster makers. As I said in my post, most of the time I use real guns. Why? because most of my business is local and it is cheaper for me to use my customers gun. I just don't understand your logic. There are only so many ways to make a holster. I own a full size 1911. If I use a blue gun to draw up a pattern for a commander sized 1911 is it somehow less safe than the similar holster I made for my full sized 1911? Is that .75 inch difference going to kill me? Despite what your sig line says, all you have posted is your opinion. Your opinion may be experienced, that doesn't make the only valid one. There are many makers doing hundreds of holsters a year with blue guns. Are all of their happy living customers wrong or just stupid? If you want to talk facts, great. First find me one AD in which the holster was solely to blame. Second find me a case where someone lost a law suit because they used a blue gun in their holster design.

  13. #27
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    Apparently some members are not going to read all the original post,red is simply saying that when a manufacturer uses a "BLUE GUN" to make a holster as oppossed to a real pistol they cant tell if it will manipulate the slide(fit to tight),disengage safeties,mag releases etc....(not cut correctly),all because the "BLUE GUN" is a non-working copy(nothing moves on the blue gun).I've bought some very expensive holsters and waited months,get the holster and there be trace of blue gun color in the leather.Not a problem,but,that tells me the manu.did not use the real thing.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    Apparently some members are not going to read all the original post,red is simply saying that when a manufacturer uses a "BLUE GUN" to make a holster as oppossed to a real pistol they cant tell if it will manipulate the slide(fit to tight),disengage safeties,mag releases etc....(not cut correctly),all because the "BLUE GUN" is a non-working copy(nothing moves on the blue gun).I've bought some very expensive holsters and waited months,get the holster and there be trace of blue gun color in the leather.Not a problem,but,that tells me the manu.did not use the real thing.
    But the question is, did the holsters work for you?

  15. #29
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    Most YES,some I have had to trim.And I also carry strictly Glock so....
    Quote Originally Posted by tet4 View Post
    But the question is, did the holsters work for you?

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peabo View Post
    In my particular case, I have three holsters for my Keltec PF9. A Crossbreed Mini-Tuck, a CompTac MTAC and a High Noon Hidden Ally. In the case of the Crossbreed and CompTac, the Kydex is perfect on the Crossbreed. Every line and bulge matches my PF9 perfectly. The CompTac was only fair. So if Crossbreed uses blue guns, they are excellent replicas. I can't guess what CompTac uses. Now the PF9 is not a high end gun, but I appreciate that Crossbreed takes the time for excellence even with low end guns!

    I would also like to note that I have a Crossbreed Super Tuck and a CompTac MTAC for my Glock 19. In this case the Kydex shells from both companies are excellent.
    Here is the Comp-Tac process: The Comp-Tac Process | Comp-Tac

    They use a real gun to make their molds and then again to check final fit.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

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