Holster design: does your maker use real pistols? - Page 3

Holster design: does your maker use real pistols?

This is a discussion on Holster design: does your maker use real pistols? within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by fastk9dad Here is the Comp-Tac process: The Comp-Tac Process | Comp-Tac They use a real gun to make their molds and then ...

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Thread: Holster design: does your maker use real pistols?

  1. #31
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    Here is the Comp-Tac process: The Comp-Tac Process | Comp-Tac

    They use a real gun to make their molds and then again to check final fit.
    having-problem-two-comp-tac-holsters
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  2. #32
    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Guess I gotta throw my holster away. Darn, and it was working so well, too!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Ok, and? You are having problems with 2 ebay holsters (ever wonder why they might be there?), one which isn't even made for the firearm you are using in it. Are you trying to say what Comp-Tac posted not true based on your experience?
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    Ok, and? You are having problems with 2 ebay holsters (ever wonder why they might be there?), one which isn't even made for the firearm you are using in it. Are you trying to say what Comp-Tac posted not true based on your experience?
    Reading comprehension friend - sensei2 and sgb, one of these is not like the other. Further as it concerns holsters there is no difference between a P226R and a P220R, and it directly relates to your post as it shows that even using real guns doesn't guarantee there won't be problems with some holsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by sensei2 View Post
    i like Comp Tac kydex holsters. i've bought six of them on Ebay and four of them work beautifully. BUT: with two of them, i CANNOT draw the gun when i'm WEARING the holster on my belt/pants. it shouldn't be that i'm drawing incorrectly, otherwise the other four should not work either (?). if i hold the holster and gun in my hands, i can draw the gun just fine. it's not that the retention screws are too tight - i have had them loosened to the point where the gun will fall out if the holster is turned upside down.

    i called Comp Tac and was told that since i bought these holsters where i did, that they weren't covered by any warranty. the rep suggested that i take a heat gun or hot hair dryer to the retention dimple in the trigger guard, which would "relax" the dimple and possibly fix the problem. one holster is a paddle for a Sig P-226R, (though i am using it with a P-220R) and the other is a belt loop holster for a non-railed Sig P-229.

    i would love to know that i am not the only person who has ever had this problem, and i'd be even happier to learn of a remedy.

    i have never had this problem with any of my many Blade Tech kydex holsters, either.

    i think i'll try Raven Concealment Systems next time: their warranty: "If you wear out or break a piece of RCS gear, we will repair or replace it at no charge - FOREVER. It doesn't matter where you bought it, when you bought it, or how you broke it. No fine print - no exceptions. Just return the product to us and we will make it right. It is a TRULY unconditional lifetime warranty."
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Reading comprehension friend - sensei2 and sgb, one of these is not like the other. Further as it concerns holsters there is no difference between a P226R and a P220R, and it directly relates to your post as it shows that even using real guns doesn't guarantee there won't be problems with some holsters.
    I apologize for the identity confusion. :)

    I simply answering someones curiosity as to how Comp-Tac made their holsters. I understand that even real guns might not ensure a perfect fit, but I wasn't making that claim in my post, which is why I got a bit defensive with the post.

    As for the 220/226... while they typically fit the same holsters there are subtle differences, namely in the trigger guard shape. I have a 220R Carry and a 228R, and they both use the same holster that I originally had made for the 228R. However if the 220R Carry didn't fit I wouldn't complain since it really wasn't designed for that gun in the first place.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  6. #36
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    I don't make holsters, but it would seem to me that common sense would dictate that if the blue gun never changes, then making a mold from a blue gun that fits the real one perfectly (and safely) would allow for copies to be made to the exact specifications going forward without testing with a real gun every time. If it's replicated exactly, every time, I don't see the problem. I do believe, however, that for QA purposes, it's best to "test" the finished product with the real deal. Also, experienced holster manufacturers should know (I would think) when something isn't working quite right, even if they are using a blue gun.

    *EDIT*
    All this talk of blue guns makes me think of the show, Arrested Development.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  7. #37
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    I suppose this fact/opinion thing can be thought of as a matter of degree: where once we proved the effects of gravity, now we have proved we can defeat it. That makes the fact a matter of degree, but gravity is still a fact.

    In that vein I have always liked The Big Bang Theory's take on matters of degree: "It's a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable, it's very wrong to say it's a suspension bridge."
    GeorgiaDawg likes this.
    Red (Richard) Nichols

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array rednichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haystacker View Post
    Red,
    Any particular lawsuits come to mind? I would like to read the transcript if possible.
    Thanks,
    Jeff
    Though my post was not meant to imply that lawsuits follow from using non-guns in holster design and testing, it might be interesting to see this example that lawsuits do happen.

    Manufacturer defends holster use 04/18/1986 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

    I recall having to explain to Bill Rogers, of all people, why we at Bianchi had settled a CHP case. We didn't make those decisions; when your company is insured, the insurer makes those decisions (i.e., once you make a claim, you lose control of the decision-making process). Unlikely any of the small makers who review this site have products insurance, or even make/sell as a corporation; and that's not all bad.
    Red (Richard) Nichols

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    I've bought some very expensive holsters and waited months,get the holster and there be trace of blue gun color in the leather.Not a problem,but,that tells me the manu.did not use the real thing.
    Actually your wrong in what your saying here, well at least what your saying is not what Red's saying. The short version of what I take from Red is that you can use dummy guns all you like so long as you verify your design/rig with a real gun before it heads out the door to make sure it's safe. Also keep in mind blue guns that actually rub blue off of them are just the guns from Ring's that get the final finish which you can request them not to do. So all of my blueguns don't leave any marking color wise, that also doesn't include any of my aluminum dummy guns which are natural colored as well. None of that though is of issue, wet molding can be done with a dummy and verified after it's dry with the real gun and you'd still possibly have the blue marking your talking about. So my only point is that you can do the process properly and still have a bit of blue inside a holster(if you have a gun with the blue shoe polish finish on it). I just didn't want people to go off thinking anyone using a dummy gun is wrong and doing something incorrectly. They may be but it's not a hard and fast rule.

    Red I respect what you've done design wise and for the industry a great deal, I don't always agree with you on all things but that's somewhat the nature of this business. I agree you've got way more experience than I do in this industry but I also can see where someone can make a great holster using nothing but a dummy gun. It may require a little more care and thought but it's certainly not impossible and I don't think that a company who's making a good rig using dummy guns is necessarily doing something wrong. The same mistakes can be made with a dummy gun that can be made with a real gun as well, I think the bigger problem is the ability to analyze a design and find the issues with it that you can change to correct problems etc. That ability doesn't necessarily rely on having the real gun in hand to find out, really the primary thing I can think of that having the real gun helps with is retention levels, but that can vary gun to gun and version to version so that isn't a hard and fast rule either. You can check other design functions using a dummy and insure it's safe and functional, best practice might be to have the real gun handy to verify but I don't think that's feasible for all holster makers especially smaller shops.

    Just my opinion and 2 cents, not saying your wrong because I do think you've got a point that people need to insure a rig is safe, I've seen some unsafe designs out there. That said I'm not sure if that maker had used a real gun they would have found the faults in their design either, I've seen plenty of holsters made off the real gun that weren't safe it comes down to the person doing the design and building and their abilities.

    Take care!

    Luke

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array rednichols's Avatar
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    Thanks for that, Luke. I don't know how to say it more clearly than I have already.

    Had a look at your site, you've put some imagination into your designs, and the key indicators of good workmanship are there. No guns in the holster pics is actually how it was done pre-Bianchi, and research (focus groups) shows that this makes it more difficult for buyers to visualize the totality of what you are offering (been in retail a long time, too).
    Red (Richard) Nichols

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
    Had a look at your site, you've put some imagination into your designs, and the key indicators of good workmanship are there. No guns in the holster pics is actually how it was done pre-Bianchi, and research (focus groups) shows that this makes it more difficult for buyers to visualize the totality of what you are offering (been in retail a long time, too).
    Thanks, the lack of guns in the rigs is mostly a carry over from when we first started building rigs. I was building holsters out of my shop in our motorhome while travelling around the country. Depending on the location I couldn't always take pictures of holsters outside with guns in place without upsetting my RV park neighbors;) So I would almost always take a picture of the holster without the gun to insure I didn't have problems with other RV'ers and it's kind of stuck. I do need to update the photo's on the site though since I take a picture of every holster that leaves my shop I've got around a thousand new pics that I haven't even picked through to put up some of my newer holsters and revisions. A few of those pictures are actually slightly older versions of my existing designs etc without all the current revisions. I actually have been planning a site upgrade though for around 6 months and haven't wanted to put the time into the old site if I can help it since I have to recode a good deal of it anyhow.

    Either way I appreciate the heads up on the research of guns in rigs for pictures, that's on my list since we're back living/working in the woods and I don't have any neighbors to upset anymore;) That and I'm planning on doing allot more on-body holster pictures to show off how the rigs ride and conceal.

    Take care!

    Luke

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    If I am worried about a blue gun being used I am worrying way to much about it.
    Life is way to short of stuff like that.

  13. #43
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    I've made over 100 holsters for 28 different guns. I use a mix of real and blue guns. Since I make quite a few using the customer's gun, it works out to 64% real and 36% blue. I would, of course, prefer the real thing, but am not made of $$. I do buy the real thing if I think I can make it pay, and I also want it myself. I did this for several models. My SIL has a few real ones that I use as well.

    As far as controls, I have modified some of my blue guns to move the safety so the holster can be molded "cocked and locked" if there isn't one already made that way. It isn't hard to see if the holster will interfere with magazine release buttons, blue or real.

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
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    I use real, metal guns and blue guns for my holsters. For the cost of one real gun, we can get 5 to 10 "fake" guns... I do have real guns that I use only for making holsters for because had enough interest in them to make financial sense. I own some guns and have blue guns and they are virtually identical so no problem using them.
    MNBurl

    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array rednichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNBurl View Post
    . . . they are virtually identical so no problem using them.
    That's as good a demonstration of not understanding you're a weapons' carrier maker as I've seen so far. Omg.
    Red (Richard) Nichols

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