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Holster design: does your maker use real pistols?

5K views 44 replies 23 participants last post by  rednichols 
#1 · (Edited)
Here's one that's hard to check out: does your holster maker use real pistols when designing your holster (that is, when making patterns and building prototypes and testing them), or dummy guns?

This pic reminded me:

Handgun holster Leather Gun accessory


The maker here (from an album on this forum) has used a blue gun for his pic; and I'm not suggesting, nor do I know otherwise, that the maker has used blue guns for design.

But it's an easy practice to fall into; a small armory (I had 50 pistols) is expensive to maintain, and one could easily persuade oneself that a blue gun is 'just as good'. But it's not.

That's because the real-world issues of the pistol are not taken into account with solid castings. Is the holster so tight that the slide moves? Is the holster cut to interfere with the controls; for example, does something flip the safety to off from on, or vice versa? A little bump pop the mag button? The moulding such that it interferes with a trigger, such as a cocked-and-locked 1911? Does a safety strap slip into the trigger guard and interfere with the trigger when holstering? It's a long list; but just imagine combining several of them into a single situation: a 1911's safety gets knocked to fire, a safety strap slips into the trigger guard, BANG! One could only hope the slide was moved out of battery by the tight fit.

So I don't know how you, as buyers, would ever be able to verify that real pistols are used in the design and testing (and final QC) of your holster, as I'd expect any maker to claim they do, even if they don't. Rest assured the big and medium makers use the real thing, I've been in all their factories. But the little boutique makers? You'll have to wonder. Be careful.

Certainly one wouldn't want to be the maker defending in a courtroom. Plaintiff's expert would serve the maker's head up on a platter, for using a dummy gun for design and testing (easily proved which is being used).
 
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#2 ·
Some of the steps involve wet leather and I don't want wet leather in contact with my gun.

Personally I have no problems with the use of blue guns.
 
#5 ·
Non-guns are acceptable as part of the process. They are an unacceptable substitute for all of the process.

I'm not stating a preference, I'm issuing a warning: relying on non-guns, instead of real ones, is dangerous to the user and the general public.

This is not like, "I prefer Kydex over leather". This is one element of factual basis of user safety, and injuries, and lawsuits; and my goal on this forum is education.

Not much fun to sit in a courtroom with the widow. REALLY would not be fun to testify that you didn't use real pistols because you didn't want to get them wet.
 
#4 ·
All else aside, I think it would get very expensive for a holster maker to have to keep a real pistol in stock for every different holster that he makes!
 
#10 ·
Seen plenty of ND's from people/Leo's holstering guns with striker fire systems that its not a holster problem but a user problem usually involving a shirt jacket entering trigger guard as the shove the gun in the holster.
 
#11 ·
red, are all [auto] pistols really created equal??

Are you stating that there are absolutely no variances in manufacturer to manufacturer slide widths, front sight heights and overall slide-to-frame girths? I'm specifically referring to the 1911 platform.
 
#12 ·
Especially for revolvers I'm having a really hard time figuring out what could go wrong with using a blue gun...

As long as the holster works for me I don't care how it was designed. I certainly dont care if the holster maker used a template downloaded from the internet or borrowed his friend's gun to mold it. I just want it to work.
 
#13 ·
Interesting

In my particular case, I have three holsters for my Keltec PF9. A Crossbreed Mini-Tuck, a CompTac MTAC and a High Noon Hidden Ally. In the case of the Crossbreed and CompTac, the Kydex is perfect on the Crossbreed. Every line and bulge matches my PF9 perfectly. The CompTac was only fair. So if Crossbreed uses blue guns, they are excellent replicas. I can't guess what CompTac uses. Now the PF9 is not a high end gun, but I appreciate that Crossbreed takes the time for excellence even with low end guns!

I would also like to note that I have a Crossbreed Super Tuck and a CompTac MTAC for my Glock 19. In this case the Kydex shells from both companies are excellent.
 
#30 ·
In my particular case, I have three holsters for my Keltec PF9. A Crossbreed Mini-Tuck, a CompTac MTAC and a High Noon Hidden Ally. In the case of the Crossbreed and CompTac, the Kydex is perfect on the Crossbreed. Every line and bulge matches my PF9 perfectly. The CompTac was only fair. So if Crossbreed uses blue guns, they are excellent replicas. I can't guess what CompTac uses. Now the PF9 is not a high end gun, but I appreciate that Crossbreed takes the time for excellence even with low end guns!

I would also like to note that I have a Crossbreed Super Tuck and a CompTac MTAC for my Glock 19. In this case the Kydex shells from both companies are excellent.
Here is the Comp-Tac process: The Comp-Tac Process | Comp-Tac

They use a real gun to make their molds and then again to check final fit.
 
#15 ·
You're very kind, and your comment is also spot-on topic: I've not returned to design or building since shifting to Australia because owning handguns here is problematic. Even the moulds require separate import permits and licenses and memberships in Australia.

If you're interested in what I've done in the past, though, I have several large albums posted on this site. All the Bianchi work was supported by three wall displays packed with contemporary handguns; several hundred in total. Don't take my word for it, ask the many journos who've visited the company over the years (Mass Ayoob comes to mind).

My own work I've mentioned was supported by the 50 most popular pistols and some revolvers. Remember, by the time I went out on my own to do a Porsche Design-type effort, the dust had settled on the auto vs revolver argument, in favour of the auto-pistol, thanks to the U.S. Armed Forces adoption of the Beretta, and U.S. law enforcement following suit. So my focus, you'll see from my albums, was largely on the autos.

Several posts mention "fit", and my post is about function; please read my original post again. The typical holster is indeed moulded with a non-gun, and there are several good reasons for that; but a holster can't be 'certified' safe unless the maker is relying on real pistols to prove it to himself. You, as the user, are welcome to 'self-certify', assuming you know what you're looking for (large makers have a large historical database, including lawsuits) but widows care not about such things.
 
#38 ·
Though my post was not meant to imply that lawsuits follow from using non-guns in holster design and testing, it might be interesting to see this example that lawsuits do happen.

Manufacturer defends holster use 04/18/1986 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

I recall having to explain to Bill Rogers, of all people, why we at Bianchi had settled a CHP case. We didn't make those decisions; when your company is insured, the insurer makes those decisions (i.e., once you make a claim, you lose control of the decision-making process). Unlikely any of the small makers who review this site have products insurance, or even make/sell as a corporation; and that's not all bad.
 
#17 ·
I am sorry, but I am going to have to call B.S. I really doubt that any company has ever lost or will ever lose a laws suit because they use blue guns. There are only two problems with blue guns. First is weight. it is true that blue guns do not have the same weight and balance as the real thing. It is not really an issue. All you need to know is really the center of balance of the gun. You don't need to own the gun to find this out. Something like a Glock 17 weighs like what half a pound more empty than loaded? By your logic should we all be using loaded firearms to do our design work? The only other REAL problem with blue guns is that sometimes the details are off. For instance, a lot of the 1911 blue guns are not cocked and locked. This really can be a problem. As luck would have it, blue guns are made of plastic and can be modified easily.
I have never been in any of the big holster factories, and can't say what they may or may not use. I do know that for smaller companies blue guns are the industry standard. Now, I would like to point out that while I have and do use blue guns, I use the real thing more often than not. That being said I can see no difference in function from a holster made from a real gun or a blue gun. For a maker that has handled dozens of real guns, the difference between the real gun and the blue gun is meaningless. I have read your other posts, and while I have agreed with some of what you have written and disagreed with some of it; you are entitled to your opinion. However, claiming that just because a maker uses blue guns that his products are unsafe, is false to the point of being hostile.
 
#24 ·
I do know that for smaller companies blue guns are the industry standard. Now, I would like to point out that while I have and do use blue guns, I use the real thing more often than not. That being said I can see no difference in function from a holster made from a real gun or a blue gun. For a maker that has handled dozens of real guns, the difference between the real gun and the blue gun is meaningless. I have read your other posts, and while I have agreed with some of what you have written and disagreed with some of it; you are entitled to your opinion. However, claiming that just because a maker uses blue guns that his products are unsafe, is false to the point of being hostile.
Now I understand why, in commenting on what I would have expected to be a limited practice by ANY holster makers, I seem to have poked a hornet's nest: you've 'outed' yourself as a maker who doesn't use real guns in design and field testing. That's your business, literally; and I'm simply warning buyers against such practice.

My post can't be hostile because it was not directed at you in particular; but if the shoe fits, you can wear it.

And take another look at my sig line; I'm not expressing my opinion among many -- I'm providing knowledge based on a depth and breadth of holster experience you can't match. When you catch up you can argue with me then, though I doubt it can be done now that the Golden Age has passed you by.
 
#19 ·
Ok, why? The few blue guns I have are within .004 inches of the real guns. I know I measured them. While it is true that the blue guns trigger doesn't move, it is there. You can tell if the leather is going to contact the trigger to not. Holster pushes the slide out of battery? So what. Even using a real gun this can happen when the holster comes out of the finishing process. This is a good thing. Leather stretches. You want a new holster to be a little "too" tight when brand new. There are short comings to blue guns, but they can all be worked around. I might even agree that using the real thing is better. The thing I take issue with is the premise that holsters designed around a blue gun are inherently unsafe. It's just not true.
 
#20 ·
I have modified a casting of a 1911 semi-automatic before for a holster maker by adding a real extended thumb safety that could be moved up to the ON position.
That was pretty easy to do.
 
#23 ·
My holster maker use dummy gun's to mold. Before he release them for order he will wear them for proper function. If they need to be tweaked it will get it and retested untill he approve's.
 
#27 ·
Apparently some members are not going to read all the original post,red is simply saying that when a manufacturer uses a "BLUE GUN" to make a holster as oppossed to a real pistol they cant tell if it will manipulate the slide(fit to tight),disengage safeties,mag releases etc....(not cut correctly),all because the "BLUE GUN" is a non-working copy(nothing moves on the blue gun).I've bought some very expensive holsters and waited months,get the holster and there be trace of blue gun color in the leather.Not a problem,but,that tells me the manu.did not use the real thing.
 
#36 ·
I don't make holsters, but it would seem to me that common sense would dictate that if the blue gun never changes, then making a mold from a blue gun that fits the real one perfectly (and safely) would allow for copies to be made to the exact specifications going forward without testing with a real gun every time. If it's replicated exactly, every time, I don't see the problem. I do believe, however, that for QA purposes, it's best to "test" the finished product with the real deal. Also, experienced holster manufacturers should know (I would think) when something isn't working quite right, even if they are using a blue gun.

*EDIT*
All this talk of blue guns makes me think of the show, Arrested Development.
 
#37 ·
I suppose this fact/opinion thing can be thought of as a matter of degree: where once we proved the effects of gravity, now we have proved we can defeat it. That makes the fact a matter of degree, but gravity is still a fact.

In that vein I have always liked The Big Bang Theory's take on matters of degree: "It's a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable, it's very wrong to say it's a suspension bridge."
 
#40 ·
Thanks for that, Luke. I don't know how to say it more clearly than I have already.

Had a look at your site, you've put some imagination into your designs, and the key indicators of good workmanship are there. No guns in the holster pics is actually how it was done pre-Bianchi, and research (focus groups) shows that this makes it more difficult for buyers to visualize the totality of what you are offering (been in retail a long time, too).
 
#41 ·
Had a look at your site, you've put some imagination into your designs, and the key indicators of good workmanship are there. No guns in the holster pics is actually how it was done pre-Bianchi, and research (focus groups) shows that this makes it more difficult for buyers to visualize the totality of what you are offering (been in retail a long time, too).
Thanks, the lack of guns in the rigs is mostly a carry over from when we first started building rigs. I was building holsters out of my shop in our motorhome while travelling around the country. Depending on the location I couldn't always take pictures of holsters outside with guns in place without upsetting my RV park neighbors;) So I would almost always take a picture of the holster without the gun to insure I didn't have problems with other RV'ers and it's kind of stuck. I do need to update the photo's on the site though since I take a picture of every holster that leaves my shop I've got around a thousand new pics that I haven't even picked through to put up some of my newer holsters and revisions. A few of those pictures are actually slightly older versions of my existing designs etc without all the current revisions. I actually have been planning a site upgrade though for around 6 months and haven't wanted to put the time into the old site if I can help it since I have to recode a good deal of it anyhow.

Either way I appreciate the heads up on the research of guns in rigs for pictures, that's on my list since we're back living/working in the woods and I don't have any neighbors to upset anymore;) That and I'm planning on doing allot more on-body holster pictures to show off how the rigs ride and conceal.

Take care!

Luke
 
#43 ·
I've made over 100 holsters for 28 different guns. I use a mix of real and blue guns. Since I make quite a few using the customer's gun, it works out to 64% real and 36% blue. I would, of course, prefer the real thing, but am not made of $$. I do buy the real thing if I think I can make it pay, and I also want it myself. I did this for several models. My SIL has a few real ones that I use as well.

As far as controls, I have modified some of my blue guns to move the safety so the holster can be molded "cocked and locked" if there isn't one already made that way. It isn't hard to see if the holster will interfere with magazine release buttons, blue or real.
 
#44 ·
I use real, metal guns and blue guns for my holsters. For the cost of one real gun, we can get 5 to 10 "fake" guns... I do have real guns that I use only for making holsters for because had enough interest in them to make financial sense. I own some guns and have blue guns and they are virtually identical so no problem using them.
 
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