October 16th, 2006 06:30 PM
Cavalry Draw - Would you have given him what he wants?
I really didn't want to say no, but I turned down a holster order the other day.
He was a nice guy and I probably made him mad. Would you have given him what he wanted even if you thought it wasn't safe?
Here are the details. I'd like to hear your opinions.
October 16th, 2006 06:43 PM
I understand both sides of the argument, but todays society is way to quick to sue so I would not have made the holster either, simply for the reasons you stated, it's not safe.
I will make almost anything the customer asks for but there are some things more important than making a sale.
What's to keep them from taking a crossdraw holster and moving around the waistband to achieve the same result?
If light rails were needed on handguns John Browning would have included it on the 1911.
October 16th, 2006 07:04 PM
I'm Missing Something Here...
I have 4-5 holsters that are IWB/SOB.
I don't really understand your 'Calvary Draw'...and SOB...
Each of my SOB holsters is at about 5:30 and requires that the back of the (strong) hand be against the back when the weapon is pulled...any other way would be very difficuly, especially with a vest or large shirt.
Now I have IWB/Strong side holsters that I may, at times, have at 4:00-4:30, and that would require the palm to be towards the body when drawing.
The only Calvary holster I have seen was ON the strong side and the back of the hand was against the body when drawing...pretty awkard...
But in the 'small of the back'...palm out...it's the only way that makes any sense.
And Yes, I think you should make his holster...you make holsters don't you?...(If you're not going to pick his color or gun type, why worry about the way he draws?)
OMHO...You did ask what we think!
I believe that the opportunity to shoot one's self is there with any draw...cross-draw (the leg, the gut, the knee), shoulder draw (the arm, the gut, the legs), strong side (the leg, the hip, the foot)...and the list goes on...
When I pull from SOB, I have come no closer to shooting myself than from any other draw...
It can be dangerous, but then I wouldn't carry it if it wasn't!
Oh, and also, look on line at SOB holsters, that's how I believe that they are supposed to work...palm out!
Hey, it's your product...enjoy!
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member[/B]
October 16th, 2006 07:45 PM
With todays sue happy society, I would worry that the family might come after ya. while I feel anyone who is old enough to own a gun should have the right to AD him/herself.
I feel the holster described is a great way to acheive a AD. I do not blame you a bit for not wanting to help create a potentially dangerous situation.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
October 16th, 2006 08:16 PM
I aggree that today's society is quick to sue. This leads to the multitude of warning messages on products. Though I'm not sure of how to legally insulate a holster maker from a customer shooting themselves perhaps that would be a way to give this person, and others like him, what he wants. That way you aren't turning away buisness out of legal fear. You could still turn him down for your own vaules if you didn't want to make a holster though.
There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11? (Yuri Orlov [Nicolas Cage] Lord of War)
October 16th, 2006 08:18 PM
I see both sides. Milt sparks won't even make SOB holsters....however I think I would have made it personally. If he wants it, then I guess being careful will be his concern, not yours.
I don't blame you for not making it, but I think I would have.
October 16th, 2006 08:22 PM
Well....IMO SOB carry isnt my favorite and yes, I do try and steer customers away from it....especially those with no or little carry experience.
As far as "cavalry style" carry....in all honesty, I see no reason how or why presentation is any different with a palm in/grip up carry position to the palm out/grip down carry position...which is what I gather is the "cavalry thingamadohickey".....each requires practice to get presentation correct as to not sweep the body clearing leather with either style of SOB carry..again, just my opinion. You actually have less access to the trigger until the gun clears leather with the Cavalry style over the palm out style of carry, as the finger would have to go behind the belt and just cant go there.
My problem is making the holster for the palm out position....it puts the grip below the belt line and is almost impossible to make correctly...at least in my trial and error. So Ive turned it down a couple of times over the years for that reason alone.
Let alone that when you draw the gun...to get a good purchase on the weapon, you need to force your hand between the grip and your back...making it slow and feable at best.
Shoot well and god bless.
Last edited by Eric Larsen; October 16th, 2006 at 08:34 PM.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..........Rush
October 16th, 2006 08:25 PM
SOB and cavalry draw...
SOB is made to be carried gunbutt up requiring a palm in grasp. Then drawn out and rotated muzzle down and away from body, and brought to front. Pictute a standard strong side owb pushed around to 6 o'clock and rotated muzzle to offside. Exaggerated, but basically same drawstroke.
If the gun is carried butt down and drawn by placing the hand palm out, fingers between body and grip, it is more 'cavalry' draw. Means when the gun is drawn (think Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon), muzzle is rotated inward towards body, elbow out, and brought to bear. Muzzle covers entire midsection and anything on the off side till it is out in front of shooter.
Good call Rob.
Last edited by jdsumner; October 16th, 2006 at 08:46 PM.
Reason: adding pic
October 16th, 2006 08:27 PM
Being a bit old and beat up, the only way I could draw from the SOB position would be the "cavalry draw" you described.
Forgive me, but your response is a bit like some of our government folks who think they know what's best for us. You don't think this method of carry/draw is safe; how much safer is he if he doesn't carry at all because he doesn't have the holster that is "right for him."?!
From what I read, this isn't some whacko customer, just someone who wants to buy what you wouldn't use, or let your kids use, all for your reasons. If it's not too late, why not provide him what he wanted, who are you (or me) to judge what's right for him?
Last edited by JimmyC4; October 16th, 2006 at 08:33 PM.
October 16th, 2006 08:40 PM
maybe, just maybe you could post pics of each of the drawstrokes to show the muzzle path taken by each setup.
As to the "should I" question. It's your business. You reserve the right to refuse, yes? It would be like a smith selling a 1911 with a 17 ounce trigger as a street gun. I dont care how good the buyer is, he doesnt need that light a trigger on the streets.
You could steer him towards a kidney carry - a strong side owb with a steeper butt forward rake.
But, if your heart says its a bad idea, no probs here.
October 16th, 2006 08:59 PM
I disagree that that's the way they are supposed to work. That was my point.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
Palm out is synonymous with "cavalry draw."
You're an experienced adult and can do as you wish. I've seen some pretty sharp people make some very human mistakes under stress so I think it's wise not to set yourself up for an accident. I appreciate your point of view.
October 16th, 2006 09:02 PM
Your point is well taken. It wasn't an easy call.
Originally Posted by JimmyC
October 16th, 2006 09:05 PM
why worry about the way he draws?)-retsupt99
Because I might be standing to his off side when his muzzle covers ME. Then, we have a problem!!!
October 16th, 2006 09:05 PM
Don't have any to post at the moment. Good idea, though.
Originally Posted by jdsumner
I like to post questions like this because we all learn from each other's point of view.
As to the "should I" question. It's your business........
It's one of the reasons I have my blog.
October 16th, 2006 09:18 PM
Rob, it seems to me that he had the right to ask, and you had the right to say no. I suspect that he will find someone else to make it for him, one way or another.
You are obviously someone who cares about your customers and your business, or you wouldn't have posted this here. You're looking for other perspectives on whether you did the right thing or not, and to me that concern is very much in your favor.
My question would be, if you had made it for him, would you be worrying even more than you are now? If so, it seems to me that you did what you had to do.
Just my $0.02....
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