do u prefer paddle or belt?
Judging from the amount of people who use these things I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. These holsters are in use everywhere by people who don't have any holes in their legs. The holster is as safe as you want it to be but the fact is, if someone really believes he lacks the trigger discipline to present safely from a Serpa he probably does. The same can be said of a Glock. There may be reasons to dislike the Serpa. I don't see unsafe design being one of them.the numbers prove it is more of a risk overall, or it isn't. Who's got the numbers? It either ups the risk profile or it doesn't, no? The 'train train train' response can get cliche, because if people trained and had better SA, we wouldn't need seatbelts in vehicles, or helmets for motorcycles
Human errors will happen inevitably, thus it's a poor design where humans using it are concerned. No need in begging for a problem to happen as we are human after all. No other holster design has had the number of ND's based on it's design parameters, not that I can find in research anyway. If someone has some links to other common holster designs being as problematic, please provide links, thanksI have a few of the Blackhawk Serpa holsters and like them for certain situations. I always use them with either the paddle or drop leg configuration and I like them fine on the range. IMHO, getting an AD on the draw with the Serpa is nothing but poor training. If your trigger finger is where it is supposed to be, locked out straight, it ends up extended along the frame rail. It's sloppy training that would allow an individual to use the hooked finger tip to depress the lock causing the finger to perhaps end up inside the trigger guard on draw. Another one that gets me is when you hear of and AD when re-holstering their weapon. Where was their finger??
The ND was caused by the shooters negligence in holster maintenance and not throwing it away, not the holster design. Apples to oranges.Here's an example of a leather holster causing an AD:
Man's Leather Holster Causes Accidental Discharge
That's quite a mouthful. To put it simply, if you pull on the gun before activating the release the gun won't come out of the holster and if you then try to solve the problem by hooking your finger inward and exerting more force you might hit the trigger and shoot yourself. Ya think? The Serpa "safe or unsafe" issue has taken on an internet life of its own and some of it borders on the comical. ("A cascading series of failure")... indeed. I've used the Serpa and frankly, I didn't need additional training to be able to continue indexing my trigger finger in the way I've always done.)> Duress is experienced by the shooter when draw-stroke steps are executed out of order. This
sequencing error can then initiate a cascading series of failure. This series of failures is first
recognized by the shooter as an inability to draw the firearm from the holster.
• This inability is caused by:
o The tension caused by the upward pressure of the draw stroke occurring prior to the
deactivation of the retention mechanism.
o Unless deactivated prior to the draw action, this feature "locks" the pistol in the holster.
Once locked, the shooter experiences a greater amount of duress.
o The shooter then tends to use more force in an effort to remove the weapon from the
holster and tends to transition from digital-pad to digital-tip pressure which causes the
trigger finger to bend. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the
fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger.
o When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger
positions the finger proximal to the trigger or on the trigger.
I have several SERPA holsters for several different models and makes of guns. I've used them in competition shooting and carried in them. Never shot myself. Not even once. But, I took the time to train with it.
I did take some time once and look into how this ND issue was happening. What I found was, there are a couple of things going on as far as I can tell. One is the people who are fo some reason hooking the index finger when deactivating the lock. I have no idea why someone would do that. It feels unnatural and awkward.
Second, if you extend your index finger straight, as you should, to unlock the holster, you have to move your finger about 1/2 inch down, or toward the trigger to even make an ND possible. Extend your trigger finger up on the frame as you would normally when holding a gun and not having it on target. Just as you would with good trigger discipline. That is where your finger will be when drawing from a SERPA unless you actively move it into a position where you could activate the trigger. So, it isn't the holster that is the problem in any way. In fact, to my way of thinking, the holster sets you up to have your trigger finger land exactly where it should be, up on the frame and away from the trigger unless you actively move it to where it should not be.
See below links
So if you are not willing to train with your gear and you don't think you can maintain good trigger discipline, then yeah, maybe the SERPA isn't for you.
One may have no control over it [ or as much as they think they will anyway ] under BAR and SNS responses. See below links,
It isn't a good CC holster but that is because it wasn't designed as a CC holster. It is a good level II security holster but that's about it.
Having said all that, since I bought my first one many years ago, there are designs that have come to market that I like better. The 5.11 Thumbdrive holster is one and the Safariland ALS system is another. But they all work perfectly well, if you do your part and are safe. And that bit of truth goes for any gun as well. If you are careless and can't keep you finger off the trigger when drawing from any holster,
That probably works okay when you aren't under BAR or SNS autonomic response modes, or you're either geriatric on the draw stroke and/or don't train to the engage the BAR and SNS physical responses while training.
you either need to train more or maybe not carry. Don't blame the holster for your screw up.
Either can be the problem, not just one or the other or both at the same time. See below
That is just the cowards way out.
That excludes 99% of the people who carry and a majority on this forum. Less than 1% of ccw'ers have any formal training, I'm not willing to accept whether they learned how to use it properly on their say so. Neither are others.AZQK, you are drawing comparisons to what you are doing in your instruction to this (non issue), with the broader picture, and thus narrowing the focus of a much broader picture, but still confirming what I have said.
For instance, you mention the problem LE had with ND when switching from revolvers to Glocks.
But now the Glock pistol has captured the largest market share of LE gun sales. Why is this?
Reliability and price, of course.
It is because the the issue of the ND's was recognized as user error, and training issues.
Agreed, but also the pricing and reliability. Many factors play the role in this
One problem was proper holsters that protected the triggers, along with handling instruction.
Yup
Look no further than the newest form of carry, AIWB, deemed by many as being unsafe, which I myself was guilty of. But with the proper holster and training ( like drawing and presentation), it is completely safe.
Key words being proper holster
The real issue here is knowledge. If you do not know how to keep the hooker off the trigger, then you are a danger to yourself and others, period.
Agreed again, but there's far too many novice pistol carriers that don't have that discipline, especially under stress. As a perfect example, when attending HK Swat in 93 I was slapped on the back of the head twice for inching that trigger finger into the trigger guard in anticipation of meeting a perp rounding corners. I have stellar trigger finger discipline [ through loads of formal training ] but still under stress [ we were using live fire entries in abandoned homes ] I made the mistake twice in a week. As 90+% of the gun carrying public doesn't have the time on guns, the formal training, 1/2 draw strokes from holsters, nor the rounds down range [ in excess of 1/2 million rounds ], I see no reason to allow a holster that requires trigger finger intervention to release the gun and thus create more of a potential to muck it up on the ranges, as do other instructors across the US
The Marshal Service in Lexington still use the Serpa, so evidently the rhetoric in GLYNCO has not made an impact outside of its own training requirement rules, and the service has not issued any Policy forbidding its use on duty.
Give it some, they'll have one and then policy will change
The USMC SOC units have, from what I have been told, adopted the holster, despite all the doom and gloom reports. From their field testing, which I sure included some dirt and many draws, has been found particularly favorable.
Which means what? It's a green light for novices as well? Not to my thinking it isn't. You're comparing specialized units who train religiously with their armament, that's an apples to oranges comparison IMO
Now for me, it's not the best choice, since my draw has been ingrained with the use of a triple retention holster that requires the use of the thumb only.
So, IMO, overall, for someone wanting a cheap but relatively quality holster with retention that is willing to learn how to use it properly, it is a good choice.
Yeah, or kill ya.Agreed Az. Yet I was "schooled" by a U.S. Marshall (Dangerous Felon Recovery Squad) friend who, upon seeing my non-retained, cross draw revolver set-up under my sports coat, walked up and tapped the cap of my right shoulder with his left hand. When I stepped back in surprise, I THEN saw my revolver...in his right hand. It's the embarrassing lessons that stick with ya'. :blink: