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do you like blackhawk serpa holsters?

18K views 223 replies 92 participants last post by  AzQkr 
#1 ·
do u prefer paddle or belt?
 
#155 ·
the numbers prove it is more of a risk overall, or it isn't. Who's got the numbers? ;) It either ups the risk profile or it doesn't, no? The 'train train train' response can get cliche, because if people trained and had better SA, we wouldn't need seatbelts in vehicles, or helmets for motorcycles :)
Judging from the amount of people who use these things I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. These holsters are in use everywhere by people who don't have any holes in their legs. The holster is as safe as you want it to be but the fact is, if someone really believes he lacks the trigger discipline to present safely from a Serpa he probably does. The same can be said of a Glock. There may be reasons to dislike the Serpa. I don't see unsafe design being one of them.
 
#156 ·
I have one for the rare occasions that I wear my G19 on my belt in open-carry, cross-draw position (woods trekking). Never had any resulting AD/ND issues but am seldom stressed or hurried in the backwoods. That's mostly why I...go!
 
#158 ·
I have a few of the Blackhawk Serpa holsters and like them for certain situations. I always use them with either the paddle or drop leg configuration and I like them fine on the range. IMHO, getting an AD on the draw with the Serpa is nothing but poor training. If your trigger finger is where it is supposed to be, locked out straight, it ends up extended along the frame rail. It's sloppy training that would allow an individual to use the hooked finger tip to depress the lock causing the finger to perhaps end up inside the trigger guard on draw. Another one that gets me is when you hear of and AD when re-holstering their weapon. Where was their finger??
 
#159 ·
I have a few of the Blackhawk Serpa holsters and like them for certain situations. I always use them with either the paddle or drop leg configuration and I like them fine on the range. IMHO, getting an AD on the draw with the Serpa is nothing but poor training. If your trigger finger is where it is supposed to be, locked out straight, it ends up extended along the frame rail. It's sloppy training that would allow an individual to use the hooked finger tip to depress the lock causing the finger to perhaps end up inside the trigger guard on draw. Another one that gets me is when you hear of and AD when re-holstering their weapon. Where was their finger??
Human errors will happen inevitably, thus it's a poor design where humans using it are concerned. No need in begging for a problem to happen as we are human after all. No other holster design has had the number of ND's based on it's design parameters, not that I can find in research anyway. If someone has some links to other common holster designs being as problematic, please provide links, thanks
 
#163 ·
Here's an example of a leather holster causing an AD:

Man's Leather Holster Causes Accidental Discharge
The ND was caused by the shooters negligence in holster maintenance and not throwing it away, not the holster design. Apples to oranges.

People should be taking their cues from the number of national instructors and shooting/training facilities that won't allow them on the range. Oh, and yes, they allow leather open tops [ that are serviceable and not in the linked condition ] as they don't see the ND's as they do with the Serpas.
 
#162 ·
I think they are a nice range holster and or a duty holster choice..for CC no thanks. I will stick with my RM LowRiger Kydex, Crossbreed or a Rusty Sherrick leather one. They stick out too far and for me since I just CC dont really OC I dont want nor need the retention that the Serpa provides..IMO for me its just 1 more thing in the way of getting the gun out from concealment I have to mess with/worry about.
 
#164 ·
I wouldn't argue that it wasn't the negligence of the holster owner to keep a worn out holster around. By the same token, I would argue that someone who has a Serpa holster and tries to withdraw their handgun from the holster before their hand was properly positioned is negligent in that they've failed to practice sufficiently to acquire the muscle memory that is necessary for a quick, accurate draw. I can also say that in all the years I've been using a Serpa on the range, I've never had the problem of my pistol failing to draw because I failed to depress the release, it just doesn't happen if you practice, the muscle memory thing...
Of course, everyone has their own preferences. I have zero appreciation for the bent trigger finger on draw, I don't think it accomplishes anything except increasing the chance of a AD.
 
#165 ·
)> Duress is experienced by the shooter when draw-stroke steps are executed out of order. This
sequencing error can then initiate a cascading series of failure. This series of failures is first
recognized by the shooter as an inability to draw the firearm from the holster.
• This inability is caused by:

o The tension caused by the upward pressure of the draw stroke occurring prior to the
deactivation of the retention mechanism.
o Unless deactivated prior to the draw action, this feature "locks" the pistol in the holster.
Once locked, the shooter experiences a greater amount of duress.
o The shooter then tends to use more force in an effort to remove the weapon from the
holster and tends to transition from digital-pad to digital-tip pressure which causes the
trigger finger to bend. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the
fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger.
o When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger
positions the finger proximal to the trigger or on the trigger.
That's quite a mouthful. To put it simply, if you pull on the gun before activating the release the gun won't come out of the holster and if you then try to solve the problem by hooking your finger inward and exerting more force you might hit the trigger and shoot yourself. Ya think? The Serpa "safe or unsafe" issue has taken on an internet life of its own and some of it borders on the comical. ("A cascading series of failure")... indeed. I've used the Serpa and frankly, I didn't need additional training to be able to continue indexing my trigger finger in the way I've always done. :rolleyes:
 
#167 ·
Brought to you by the same people who declared the Glock too dangerous to carry, ad nauseam.

I have one, and like it, but my main concern with it isn't with the holster, it's with me-
.
I am so use to Bianchi Safariland duty rig, that I fear in a frantic moment I may try to release it the same way.
But right now,it's the only holster I have suitable for OC,which I do very little of, but I am going to look in to the Bianchi LS model soon.

Really,all of this is a training issue.
 
#168 ·
I'll stay out of the function related fray but, I have a real question as to why folks seem so willing to defend them with such passion.
There honestly is nothing so superior about them that makes them better than other available options. Except for possibly the price.
All of the hardcore bad guys are already so intimately familiar with the retention system that it might as well not exist.
The Safarailand ALS system is vastly superior but, admittedly more expensive.
They suck for concealment. For open carry I guess they are decently functional and for wilderness carry you are likely not going to lose your firearm if you take a tumble down some hillside.
But, I just don't understand the love?
I have owned one and got rid of it NOT due to any function related issues but, only because I didn't think there was anything special or great about it.
But, then again I carry concealed and so I would never opt for one.
Just my personal opinion.
 
#171 ·
I bought one of the Comp-Tac retention holsters, it uses the 'thumb' release mechanism which is considered safer. However, not being used to the holster (training issue), several times when drawing I experienced the "lock-up" scenario which a lot here are so fond of condemning the Serpa for. The only way to release the gun once locked it to push it firmly back into the holster and start again, so all that proves is retention holsters require a specific draw technique (training issue).

A lot of haters state they CC, yes, using a Serpa for CC is unrealistic, but, as in my case and a few others here, OC, hiking, etc. the Serpa is an excellent choice.

Sara Lou
 
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#176 ·
If I was to ever open carry, it wouldn't be with this holster. More of a potential issue with debris fouling the release and not allowing the gun to draw. Apparently this has happened when folks have rolled around in the dirt with this holster. I'd look at a different option.

Moot point, as I only conceal carry.

Interesting that there is so much vehement debate about a relatively cheap holster...
 
#177 ·
I think it's just that those who actually have and use the holster can't understand how anyone could be stupid enough to shoot themselves and then blame the holster.

However, the debris fouling the mechanism is IMO the only real valid point made at this time.
I just wonder if this applied across the board to all retention holsters?

My Safariland, despite the abuse and lack of care, has performed flawlessly over the last 8 years or so, and has a hood and ALS style thumb lever to disengage to release the weapon.
 
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#188 ·
I have several SERPA holsters for several different models and makes of guns. I've used them in competition shooting and carried in them. Never shot myself. Not even once. But, I took the time to train with it.

I did take some time once and look into how this ND issue was happening. What I found was, there are a couple of things going on as far as I can tell. One is the people who are fo some reason hooking the index finger when deactivating the lock. I have no idea why someone would do that. It feels unnatural and awkward.

Second, if you extend your index finger straight, as you should, to unlock the holster, you have to move your finger about 1/2 inch down, or toward the trigger to even make an ND possible. Extend your trigger finger up on the frame as you would normally when holding a gun and not having it on target. Just as you would with good trigger discipline. That is where your finger will be when drawing from a SERPA unless you actively move it into a position where you could activate the trigger. So, it isn't the holster that is the problem in any way. In fact, to my way of thinking, the holster sets you up to have your trigger finger land exactly where it should be, up on the frame and away from the trigger unless you actively move it to where it should not be.

So if you are not willing to train with your gear and you don't think you can maintain good trigger discipline, then yeah, maybe the SERPA isn't for you. It isn't a good CC holster but that is because it wasn't designed as a CC holster. It is a good level II security holster but that's about it.

Having said all that, since I bought my first one many years ago, there are designs that have come to market that I like better. The 5.11 Thumbdrive holster is one and the Safariland ALS system is another. But they all work perfectly well, if you do your part and are safe. And that bit of truth goes for any gun as well. If you are careless and can't keep you finger off the trigger when drawing from any holster, you either need to train more or maybe not carry. Don't blame the holster for your screw up. That is just the cowards way out.
 
#196 ·
I have several SERPA holsters for several different models and makes of guns. I've used them in competition shooting and carried in them. Never shot myself. Not even once. But, I took the time to train with it.

I did take some time once and look into how this ND issue was happening. What I found was, there are a couple of things going on as far as I can tell. One is the people who are fo some reason hooking the index finger when deactivating the lock. I have no idea why someone would do that. It feels unnatural and awkward.

Second, if you extend your index finger straight, as you should, to unlock the holster, you have to move your finger about 1/2 inch down, or toward the trigger to even make an ND possible. Extend your trigger finger up on the frame as you would normally when holding a gun and not having it on target. Just as you would with good trigger discipline. That is where your finger will be when drawing from a SERPA unless you actively move it into a position where you could activate the trigger. So, it isn't the holster that is the problem in any way. In fact, to my way of thinking, the holster sets you up to have your trigger finger land exactly where it should be, up on the frame and away from the trigger unless you actively move it to where it should not be.


See below links

So if you are not willing to train with your gear and you don't think you can maintain good trigger discipline, then yeah, maybe the SERPA isn't for you.

One may have no control over it [ or as much as they think they will anyway ] under BAR and SNS responses. See below links,


It isn't a good CC holster but that is because it wasn't designed as a CC holster. It is a good level II security holster but that's about it.

Having said all that, since I bought my first one many years ago, there are designs that have come to market that I like better. The 5.11 Thumbdrive holster is one and the Safariland ALS system is another. But they all work perfectly well, if you do your part and are safe. And that bit of truth goes for any gun as well. If you are careless and can't keep you finger off the trigger when drawing from any holster,

That probably works okay when you aren't under BAR or SNS autonomic response modes, or you're either geriatric on the draw stroke and/or don't train to the engage the BAR and SNS physical responses while training.

you either need to train more or maybe not carry. Don't blame the holster for your screw up.

Either can be the problem, not just one or the other or both at the same time. See below


That is just the cowards way out.

Really? How much time do you have on handguns and what's your draw time from the holster to first shot? If it's geriatric, you'll probably be just fine. When you get to sub one second draws to first COM, the BAR and SNS will be kicking in and you, like everyone else will have to deal with their effects physiologically.


Perhaps you didn't look in the right places for the answer/s. Start here, Ideomotor phenomenon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or here http://www.naturaltactical.com/BAR.pdf

How does this B.A.R. take place? First our body picks up information from one or more of our senses which we process and filter. If this information is perceived as being an urgent and immediate threat, our body immediately goes into psychological and physiological changes. This point of startle and rapid change is termed the Alarm phase. During this phase we get [/B]Symphatic Nervous System activation which does a number of things to our body in order to prepare it for a “fight for survival”[/B]. These changes include vasoconstriction, audio exclusion, tunnel vision, fine motor control loss and others. Psychologically our body is having an “Oh Boy!” moment and because the response is so deeply ingrained into our DNA we simply cannot do anything else. Basically at the moment we are experiencing the Alarm phase of B.A.R. we experience a temporary mind freeze

I've induced the BAR a few times so that a 30 year veteran of the 1911 who stated he'd never missed the manual safety or would forget to snick it forgot to snick it or fumbled it under duress. It's something that needs to be recognized for what it can create in a response.

sympathetic nervous system | anatomy | Britannica.com

psychogalvanic reflex psychogalvanic reflex (PGR)
The PGR is mediated by the sympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system. It is a part of the general arousal or activation pattern of physiological responses that mobilizes and fits the person for effective reaction in an emergency. In addition, parts of the brain’s premotor cerebral cortex appear to have a role in producing it. The consensus is that the PGR is associated with...

That would include the curling of the trigger finger in anticipation of activating the trigger system [ firing ].
 
#189 ·
AZQK, you are drawing comparisons to what you are doing in your instruction to this (non issue), with the broader picture, and thus narrowing the focus of a much broader picture, but still confirming what I have said.

For instance, you mention the problem LE had with ND when switching from revolvers to Glocks.
But now the Glock pistol has captured the largest market share of LE gun sales. Why is this?

It is because the the issue of the ND's was recognized as user error, and training issues.
One problem was proper holsters that protected the triggers, along with handling instruction.

Look no further than the newest form of carry, AIWB, deemed by many as being unsafe, which I myself was guilty of. But with the proper holster and training ( like drawing and presentation), it is completely safe.

The real issue here is knowledge. If you do not know how to keep the hooker off the trigger, then you are a danger to yourself and others, period.

The Marshal Service in Lexington still use the Serpa, so evidently the rhetoric in GLYNCO has not made an impact outside of its own training requirement rules, and the service has not issued any Policy forbidding its use on duty.

The USMC SOC units have, from what I have been told, adopted the holster, despite all the doom and gloom reports. From their field testing, which I sure included some dirt and many draws, has been found particularly favorable.

Now for me, it's not the best choice, since my draw has been ingrained with the use of a triple retention holster that requires the use of the thumb only.

So, IMO, overall, for someone wanting a cheap but relatively quality holster with retention that is willing to learn how to use it properly, it is a good choice.
 
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#193 ·
AZQK, you are drawing comparisons to what you are doing in your instruction to this (non issue), with the broader picture, and thus narrowing the focus of a much broader picture, but still confirming what I have said.

For instance, you mention the problem LE had with ND when switching from revolvers to Glocks.
But now the Glock pistol has captured the largest market share of LE gun sales. Why is this?

Reliability and price, of course.


It is because the the issue of the ND's was recognized as user error, and training issues.

Agreed, but also the pricing and reliability. Many factors play the role in this

One problem was proper holsters that protected the triggers, along with handling instruction.

Yup

Look no further than the newest form of carry, AIWB, deemed by many as being unsafe, which I myself was guilty of. But with the proper holster and training ( like drawing and presentation), it is completely safe.


Key words being proper holster

The real issue here is knowledge. If you do not know how to keep the hooker off the trigger, then you are a danger to yourself and others, period.

Agreed again, but there's far too many novice pistol carriers that don't have that discipline, especially under stress. As a perfect example, when attending HK Swat in 93 I was slapped on the back of the head twice for inching that trigger finger into the trigger guard in anticipation of meeting a perp rounding corners. I have stellar trigger finger discipline [ through loads of formal training ] but still under stress [ we were using live fire entries in abandoned homes ] I made the mistake twice in a week. As 90+% of the gun carrying public doesn't have the time on guns, the formal training, 1/2 draw strokes from holsters, nor the rounds down range [ in excess of 1/2 million rounds ], I see no reason to allow a holster that requires trigger finger intervention to release the gun and thus create more of a potential to muck it up on the ranges, as do other instructors across the US

The Marshal Service in Lexington still use the Serpa, so evidently the rhetoric in GLYNCO has not made an impact outside of its own training requirement rules, and the service has not issued any Policy forbidding its use on duty.

Give it some, they'll have one and then policy will change

The USMC SOC units have, from what I have been told, adopted the holster, despite all the doom and gloom reports. From their field testing, which I sure included some dirt and many draws, has been found particularly favorable.


Which means what? It's a green light for novices as well? Not to my thinking it isn't. You're comparing specialized units who train religiously with their armament, that's an apples to oranges comparison IMO

Now for me, it's not the best choice, since my draw has been ingrained with the use of a triple retention holster that requires the use of the thumb only.

So, IMO, overall, for someone wanting a cheap but relatively quality holster with retention that is willing to learn how to use it properly, it is a good choice.
That excludes 99% of the people who carry and a majority on this forum. Less than 1% of ccw'ers have any formal training, I'm not willing to accept whether they learned how to use it properly on their say so. Neither are others.
 
#205 ·
I'm thinking a guy or gal could get rich fast, if they were to design and produce an aftermarket modification that would keep a serpa tucked in to the body better than the stock attachments.
Just musing.
 
#208 ·
Safariland does make a newer retention holster that conceals better than the SERPA or Safariland ALS holsters. It's the GLS models and specifically the 537 GLS Belt Slide. The new locking system is behind the trigger guard and is activated by obtaining a master grip on the gun. So it takes some of the bulk out of the holster and can sit closer to the body. They make them with a paddle attachment also.


 
#207 ·
I prefer paddle but I will never buy another Blackhawk holster again. I broke one of their Serpa paddles in less than 6 months with normal carry. I contacted them to see if I could purchase a new paddle and they wouldn't sell me one. I was told to go buy another holster with the paddle. I went to Safariland and never looked back.
 
#215 ·
Agree to a degree Az. Yet I was "schooled" by a U.S. Marshall (Dangerous Felon Recovery Squad) friend who, upon seeing my non-retained, cross draw revolver set-up under my sports coat, walked up and tapped the cap of my right shoulder with his left hand. When I stepped back in surprise, I THEN saw my revolver...in his right hand. It's the embarrassing lessons that stick with ya'. :blink:
 
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#216 ·
Agreed Az. Yet I was "schooled" by a U.S. Marshall (Dangerous Felon Recovery Squad) friend who, upon seeing my non-retained, cross draw revolver set-up under my sports coat, walked up and tapped the cap of my right shoulder with his left hand. When I stepped back in surprise, I THEN saw my revolver...in his right hand. It's the embarrassing lessons that stick with ya'. :blink:
Yeah, or kill ya.
 
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