Cant (VM2 vs. MC5)

Cant (VM2 vs. MC5)

This is a discussion on Cant (VM2 vs. MC5) within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey Guys, I havent been posting too much as of recently, but the more I wear my XD9 in my VM2, the more I find ...

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Thread: Cant (VM2 vs. MC5)

  1. #1
    Member Array R.E.Lee's Avatar
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    Cant (VM2 vs. MC5)

    Hey Guys,

    I havent been posting too much as of recently, but the more I wear my XD9 in my VM2, the more I find myself wishing it had slightly more forward cant (to lift the butt of the gun up slightly, allowing it to better tuck into my back).

    Seeing as how the VM2 doesnt have adjustable clips, though I love leather (and hated the kydex, CTAC I tried), I am wondering if the Brommeland MC5 has more or less forward cant than the VM2.

    I am also giving some thought to trying Kevin at K&D's new Dakota defender, though I like the slimness of the MC5, and it seems as if the Dakota and VM2 are about the same thickness.

    I guess the reason I havent just up and bought an MC5 for my XD9 yet is that I am thinking about replacing it as my primary carry gun with something along the lines of a 4" 1911, more than likely a Dan Wesson Bobtail commander. I guess I am still looking for the holster for me, and refuse to have the box full of "not-quite" holsters.

    Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me!


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array Roundeyesamurai's Avatar
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    Hey R.E., here's an idea: Look in the Yellow Pages for a cobbler or other type of leatherworker, take the holster to him, and see if he can make the modification you're looking for.

    Ask for samples of his previous work, of course.

  3. #3
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundeyesamurai View Post
    Hey R.E., here's an idea: Look in the Yellow Pages for a cobbler or other type of leatherworker, take the holster to him, and see if he can make the modification you're looking for.

    Ask for samples of his previous work, of course.
    I cannot possibly recommend AGAINST such an approach strongly enough. To have a sophisticated concealment holster design tinkered with by a shoe repair guy or saddlemaker is roughly equivalent to stopping by your local butcher shop for brain surgery.

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array Roundeyesamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland View Post
    I cannot possibly recommend AGAINST such an approach strongly enough. To have a sophisticated concealment holster design tinkered with by a shoe repair guy or saddlemaker is roughly equivalent to stopping by your local butcher shop for brain surgery.
    Oh really? And that would be because...?

  5. #5
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.E.Lee View Post
    Hey Guys,

    I havent been posting too much as of recently, but the more I wear my XD9 in my VM2, the more I find myself wishing it had slightly more forward cant (to lift the butt of the gun up slightly, allowing it to better tuck into my back).

    Seeing as how the VM2 doesnt have adjustable clips, though I love leather (and hated the kydex, CTAC I tried), I am wondering if the Brommeland MC5 has more or less forward cant than the VM2.


    Howdy,

    The Max-Con V's are raked at approx 25 degrees for just the purpose that you mentioned - it allows the firearm to be worn behind the break of the hip (about 4:00-4:30) with the grip tucked into the hollow area just below the botton rib. This really enhances the holster's concealment characteristics, and still allows a nice smooth draw from that position.

    The VM2 is a great holster and it's design is an indication of Tony Kanaley's talent. I believe it is intended to be worn a bit further forward though (3:00 -3:30), because it is raked at what seems to me to be about 17 degrees. Tony lurks here from time to time, you might want to post a question to him for the specifics - I am just guessing .

    Both are great holsters, but they are different designs offering different features. Good luck with your search for the "perfect" holster - I've been struck with that particular brand of obsession for most of my life (that's why I run a holster shop ).

  6. #6
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundeyesamurai View Post
    Oh really? And that would be because...?
    Because holster making combines the leatherworking talent of a master craftsman, a strong working knowledge of anatomy & physiology, the totally mastery of the mechanical workings (of each and every) firearm that a holster is made for, with the tactical expertise and "street sense" of a professional firearms trainer.
    That is a VERY rare skill set that takes about 5 years of INTENSIVE study, training, practice - along with a LOT of trial& error to even get started in the game. Most holstermakers who are considered world class have been doing it at least ten to 15 years.
    I've been making holsters (professionally) for 22 years, and I still learn new stuff all the time, and trust me - I live, eat, sleep and breath holstermaking.
    Tony Kanaley has been at it as long as I have, Josh Bulman has been at it about 15 years, Lou Alessi more than 30, as has Matt DelFatti.
    Just because a guy can do pretty leather work does NOT qualify him to make or modify sophisticated equipment that people trust their very lives to.
    For example, my mom is a master seamstress and can do literally anything that is possible with a sewing machine and a piece of cloth. However, I would not even consider having her make a parachute for me...

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Eric Larsen's Avatar
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    Id highly recommend you take Gary's advice against having a holster modified by anyone!

    I wont modify my own work like you are describing and I KNOW How its made, what it took to get it there and why its made that way!

    It's safer and frankly easier for me to remake a holster than to try and modify an existing product.....

    Anytime you modify a proven design you run the risk of it simply not working like it is supposed to.....

    And there is just to much to lose when it comes to a holster that needs to work when you need it to. How much is your life worth?

    It may sound like Im going over the top with this...but in all reality, Im stating it just like it needs to come across.

    Shoot well and god bless
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..........Rush

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array Roundeyesamurai's Avatar
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    OK, the qualifications to make a leather holster are all well and good, but there's one problem that has not yet been addressed:

    What's R.E. Lee (and anyone else for that matter) supposed to do about his holster?

    If the answer is "buy a new one", then I would have to say that that smacks of self-promotion. "Don't like your holster? Well, I'll be happy to sell you a new holster". And then that holster isn't right, either, and the solution is to buy yet another one, ad infinitum.

    In the meantime, I am wondering what is so complicated about moving a belt loop a hair this way or that way, etc., that it can't be accomplished by someone other than "the master craftsman". It's not brain surgery, it's an alteration.

    I don't need to send a Brioni suit back to Brioni to have the inseam shortened, after all. As a matter of fact, I'm sure your mother could whip that off in a hurry, though the master tailors at Brioni would howl with rage over the fact that someone other than themselves defiled their masterpiece.

    In fact, Gary, your statement about your mom underlies the problem here: The craftsman's natural belief that his product is sacred. "I made it, hence, nobody but me can alter it in any way". It's the same reason why writers despise editors. The most minor suggestion that someone else (or at least, someone "lesser") might be capable of making such a minor alteration is considered a major affront.

    Nobody is talking about turning his holster into an entirely different holster, just like no-one would actually ask your mother to make them a parachute. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

  9. #9
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundeyesamurai View Post
    OK, the qualifications to make a leather holster are all well and good, but there's one problem that has not yet been addressed:

    What's R.E. Lee (and anyone else for that matter) supposed to do about his holster?

    If the answer is "buy a new one", then I would have to say that that smacks of self-promotion. "Don't like your holster? Well, I'll be happy to sell you a new holster". And then that holster isn't right, either, and the solution is to buy yet another one, ad infinitum.

    In the meantime, I am wondering what is so complicated about moving a belt loop a hair this way or that way, etc., that it can't be accomplished by someone other than "the master craftsman". It's not brain surgery, it's an alteration.

    I don't need to send a Brioni suit back to Brioni to have the inseam shortened, after all. As a matter of fact, I'm sure your mother could whip that off in a hurry, though the master tailors at Brioni would howl with rage over the fact that someone other than themselves defiled their masterpiece.

    In fact, Gary, your statement about your mom underlies the problem here: The craftsman's natural belief that his product is sacred. "I made it, hence, nobody but me can alter it in any way". It's the same reason why writers despise editors. The most minor suggestion that someone else (or at least, someone "lesser") might be capable of making such a minor alteration is considered a major affront.

    Nobody is talking about turning his holster into an entirely different holster, just like no-one would actually ask your mother to make them a parachute. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.
    Sir,
    I have addressed this as accurately as it is possible to do, and my opinion is based upon more than two decades of intensive study, and work in this very field. During that time I've designed, made and sold something in the vicinity of 30,000 holsters. If you choose to not accept my opinion, that is certainly your perrogative to do so. I will not argue with you.
    For the benefit of those reading this, I will absolutely state that having a holster modified at all is usually a very unwise practice. Having one modified by the local shoe repair guy can easily get you killed.
    As far as the accusation of "self promotion" goes, we are backed up 8-20 weeks right now, depending upon what is ordered. I do not need promotion, what I need are 48 hour days. Furthermore, if a customer buys one of my holsters and it does not work out for him, we will exchange it for something else or refund their money.
    Finally, if my mom did butcher your Brioni (highly unlikely), you would not run the risk of bodily injury or death because your overpriced pants are too short. You'd just look as funny as you sound......

  10. #10
    Member Array Mark Garrity's Avatar
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    Roundeyesamurai,
    I'll add to this and elaborate a bit more specific and technical.
    On my In-Cognito IWB, similar to a VMII, the screw post that the loop attaches with is sandwiched between the two pieces of leather and hidden so that there is no metal exposed except the post thru it's hole,. I believe the VMII is constructed the same way. Moving this post would require cutting and unstitching the boarder stitch, peeling the glued together leather apart, (not an easy task), remounting the post and glueing and stitching everything back together. The act of cutting the thread and restitching leaves no guarantee that the once existing thread will not unravel at some point in time. The act of peeling apart two pieces of leather that have been glued for some time will leave permenant stress wrinkles throughout that section that will ruin the appearence of the holster. The pieces may not line up exactly after being separated, and you've got pre-existing needle/stitch holes to line up. No shoe repair guy or anyone else involved in leatherwork is going to want to machine stitch thru pre-existing holes, because it's total PITA and would require adjusting his machine to the pre-determined stitch-space of stitches per inch, which is likely different and particular to each maker, and stitches are much closer in the shoe industry. Ask around and try finding a shoe guy that will doe that.
    All this said, the front strap is the one that would have to be moved higher to make a holster ride at a steeper cant. If you look at a VMII or any of the other dual-loop IWBs, there is no room to mount the screw stud any higher. It is already mounted to the boarder stitch line. And moving the rear loop lower by punching a hole completely thru the leather to mount another loop will make the holster ride too high, especially with a short barreled pistol, and change the ride height of the holster. Trust us, we know what we're doing!
    A very good friend of mine makes custom cowboy boots in exotic leathers from the ground up. He has been in business for close to 40 years. He lets me use his shop and has taught me alot about working in exotics. He has probably forgotten more about leather-working than most of us holster-guys will ever learn. He has admired my work , has a few of my exotic holsters on display in his shop; and has commented that (even with all his experience) he would never attempt making such a holster. He realizes it's a totally different game. And I , in turn, would never try making a pair of boots.
    Last edited by Mark Garrity; November 8th, 2006 at 02:04 PM.
    "He who makes things with his hands is a laborer, he who makes things with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who makes things with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
    www.garritysgunleather.com

  11. #11
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    Have to agree. changing the structure and stitching , plus gluing is better done by those who build em. I would not want some one modifying my designs either. Due to the way they are built for strength and retention.
    don't like the holster. as the maker to change it or buy a different 1.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundeyesamurai View Post
    The craftsman's natural belief that his product is sacred. "I made it, hence, nobody but me can alter it in any way". It's the same reason why writers despise editors. The most minor suggestion that someone else (or at least, someone "lesser") might be capable of making such a minor alteration is considered a major affront.
    Well, I'm not a holster maker or a leather worker but a craftsman I am and in my medium considered a darn good one. Craftsman who are worthy of the name have taken years and years of work to attain the knowledge, tools and techniques to do what they do. Non craftsman figure it's easy so what's the big deal? Truth is along the way craftsman have had to deal with so many people who have tried something like what you suggest and then had a botched up mess they get touchy about it. They do what they do for specific reasons. They react the way they do not because they're being sanctimonious about it but because they don't want another botched up mess with their name on it most times. It's happened to me in my world so many times I stopped counting. If they wanted it modified, ask me first. If I tell 'em why it's a bad idea and they want to do it anyways I ask them to remove my name from it and keep it that way.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    Suggestions

    It's incredibly important for all shooters to research any holster "style and type" especially with regard to the "cant" angle before they select/choose or finalize their order for an expensive or custom/semi~custom carry rig.

    You just cannot make a 100% intelligent personal holster selection based on how many other people love exactly the same holster or how many other people it perfectly fits like a glove.

    If anybody learns anything at all from being around other truly dedicated and serious concealed carry people, they will learn that not every holster fits every person - no matter who made it - or how technically perfect it was constructed.

    In the past I've always suggested that folks go to Matt Del Fatti's holster web site and learn how to determine the exact rake & desired degree of cant before plunking down the hard earned cash on any super nice & pricey holster by any maker.

    That being said...once you buy something and you own it and it's not defective merchandise then do what you want with it because you now own it and it's yours.

    If I made an incorrect holster selection....personally I would offer it for sale on CombatCarry in the 10 mile long Holsters For Sale thread. (which is probably the longest running thread on CombatCarry.com) BECAUSE not every holster works perfectly for every person.

    Enter...the infamous closet full of past holster purchases.

    Were I you...I would attempt to sell it unaltered before I destroyed the intrinsic high dollar value of your holster by having it tampered with by the local shoemaker.
    Nobody else will want it once you mess with it.

    I remember back when I was shooting rimfire competition I paid over $149.00 for a set of custom made Walnut "Target" grips for my favorite comp gun. I had to send in an accurate tracing of my hand & a measurment around the palm area.

    149 bucks was a TON of money (a small fortune) to spend on any set of wood grips way back then.

    When my Spankin' New Grips finally arrived they looked nothing short of MASTERFUL! They were beautiful and they fit my FIREARM perfectly.

    Unfortunately they did NOT feel like they fit my hand at all and my nice, tight groups opened way up.
    In practice I was shooting match grade ammo terribly with these magnificent looking grips!

    They were beautiful Walnut and amazingly finished but, in actual shooting they just did feel "right" to me.

    So I took a wood rasp with me for my next practice session and I just rasped the hell out of them to thin them on the right side & lower the thumb rest on the other. I knew what I wanted them to feel like and I didn't really care what they looked like.

    That sure worked for me but, have no doubt that I totally and forever destroyed the value of those grips to anybody else but me.

    I would have expected the very same reaction from the custom grip maker that made my finely crafted grips.
    He did a beautiful job.
    He didn't do anything wrong.
    Everybody loved those grips.
    They just didn't work for me personally.
    One hundred other shooters would have absolutely died for them.
    They were technically perfect and sized correctly but, they were just not for my particular hand. My tough luck so I made them right.

    I would say you've been given sound advice as to why you should not have a local shoemaker attempt to do alterations your holster but, it's yours & you bought it so do what you'll do with it.

    Personally I would try to sell it "as is" and non~butchered to somebody that can use that particular style...and then do some more educated shopping for another (more suitable for you) carry rig that features your recently discovered ideal desired degree of cant for the O'Clock body location you want to carry at.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Eric Larsen's Avatar
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    Well...the original poster has done what we all have done....bought a product that is close to what works for him....but not close enough.

    We are not selling anything here....Im in the same boat as Gary....I dont need promotion...I need more time in the day.

    What I will tell you is if the holster is in good condition...simply sell it and get something that is more to his needs! I not only wont push my stuff here....Ill help him find a holster that will work for him from another maker.

    So much for trying to promote my products.........?

    Not only is it very hard as WEVE TRIED TO SAY....Mark got into the actual contruction of the holster and why it simply isnt worth it...but you really dont know what kind of work someone else is gonna do to begin with.

    I have one of the best shoe guys in the industry....he uses a model 29K Singer patcher sewing machine and it max's out at 138 thread.
    He doesnt use Barge Cement...nor does he know what size hole to punch through the leather to minimize the movement of the T nut that I use.

    He has good equipment for what he does...but not even close to what I need! IMO~

    My point is...he doesnt do what we do. Leather is NOT leather! If you think so....have your upholstery guy, who did your diamond tuck and roll seats in the van....make you a holster...hell, Im sure it will work just fine! Kidding to make a point.

    Sorry for the rant....but look at it this way. If you modify a holster and it breaks at just the wrong time...its your life! If you get close, learn what works for you in the process..(Which IMO is priceless anyway) and sell it and get another that is what you need....your out 20-40$... maybe.

    If the shoe guys repair doesnt work and the family doesnt know its not my fault that the holster failed and the LEA's/Forensics come to the conclusion...he died because of holster failure. I DONT WANT TO GET SUED over something as hair balled as something like this!

    Shoot well and god bless
    Last edited by Eric Larsen; November 9th, 2006 at 12:28 PM.
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..........Rush

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    Member Array country85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland View Post
    Sir,
    Finally, if my mom did butcher your Brioni (highly unlikely), you would not run the risk of bodily injury or death because your overpriced pants are too short. You'd just look as funny as you sound......


    Well said Gary,

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