Safety on p238

Safety on p238

This is a discussion on Safety on p238 within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I had a question on condition 2 on p238. My understanding is that it is chambered,safety off,hammer down. So am I correct that if your ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Joonbi's Avatar
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    Safety on p238

    I had a question on condition 2 on p238. My understanding is that it is chambered,safety off,hammer down. So am I correct that if your thumb slips trying to cock it that it can't fire because of a block?Also if you pulled the trigger with hammer half way that it won't fire? What if it is dropped with hammer down? One more question, how safe is the xds compared to glock?Just trying to Learn.
    Thanks in advance


  2. #2
    Member Array zeke4351's Avatar
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    The Sig P238 is made to carry safely cocked and locked. Period end of story. If you are not comfortable doing so stay away from them or you are just asking for ND. The slide can be racked with the safety on and the hammer cocked.

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    Member Array Qtip's Avatar
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    What he said ^^. I carry the 938 regularly, always cocked and locked. That's how it was designed to be carried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joonbi View Post
    I had a question on condition 2 on p238. My understanding is that it is chambered,safety off,hammer down. So am I correct that if your thumb slips trying to cock it that it can't fire because of a block?Also if you pulled the trigger with hammer half way that it won't fire? What if it is dropped with hammer down? One more question, how safe is the xds compared to glock?Just trying to Learn.
    Thanks in advance
    I can not speak directly to the 238, but I can tell you a little about my personal experiences with its older sibling, the Mustang.

    1) It can not fire if the hammer is down to the first stop, or all the way down. If you look inside, you will see that the
    hammer imparts momentum to a firing pin held back by a spring. It takes a fair amount of momentum from the hammer
    to cause the pin to move against that spring with enough force to impact the primer.

    2) Once upon a time something odd happened and the hammer fell on a chambered round without the trigger
    being pulled and I think with the safety engaged. While I have a slow motion horror movie in my mind of the hammer falling, the gun did not fire.
    In short, finger off the trigger, safety on, and it is not going to go boom.

    3) Here's how to protect yourself when putting the hammer down. Put the thumb of your left hand between the hammer
    and the gun body. Slowly release the hammer. If you thumb does slip your other thumb will prevent the hammer
    from imparting momentum to the firing mechanism.

    4) I don't know the particulars of the 238, but in the Mustang equivalent there is a lever which newbies struggle with
    when reassembling the gun. You have to push it down just the right amount or things get really messed up. That lever (don't remember the name) is part of a safety mechanism which prevents the gun from firing "by itself."

    Now, all of that said, I have decided that I now prefer DAO or DA/SA with no external safety. YMMV
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    We had a post on here a few months ago where the OP blew a hole in his car door because he carried the P238 in condition 2.

    It is meant to be carried in condition 1.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    Member Array Joonbi's Avatar
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    I don't understand how you could fire a round in condition 2. Could you explain how that could happen?

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    If you are unwilling to carry a gun cocked and locked as designed to be carried, you should carry a different gun. If you have been in any sort of fight, you will know that to do things like cock a hammer or rack the slide, do not come easy with someone pounding you into the ground. Also not easy when one hand is fending off blows or your gun hand is covered with blood from grabbing your nose that was just bashed in. Do not handicap yourself. Carry a gun you are not afraid of. Why add an extra step to the process. The way you are thinking will require thumbing back the hammer and then thumbing down the safety before firing. You seem to be thinking like many of my new students. They think that they will see trouble coming and have time to prepare. Sometimes you may have this luxury but most criminals prefer to take you by surprise.

    I know a lot of people who bought the Sig P238 because they liked the way it looks and refuse to carry it cocked and locked. If not due to looks, why else would any sane person buy a gun they are afraid to carry the way it was intended to be carried?
    Hopyard, msgt/ret, KBSR and 1 others like this.
    If everyone had the same opinion, there would be no reason to give one. It is a given that each opinion is believed to be correct. It would be silly to post something you believed to be incorrect. :)

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    Member Array Joonbi's Avatar
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    Just trying to understand, but why would you have the safety on if the hammer is down?

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joonbi View Post
    I don't understand how you could fire a round in condition 2. Could you explain how that could happen?
    The hammer was down. The person disengaged the safety to cock the hammer (a necessity on the 238). Since the gun is not designed to be carried this way, when he started to pull the hammer back, the round fired.

    He claimed he did not let the hammer fall (if I remember correctly).

    Feel free to search for the thread.
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    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joonbi View Post
    Just trying to understand, but why would you have the safety on if the hammer is down?
    Because, the hammer is touching the firing mechanism with a round in the chamber. The gun is fired by the hammer striking the firing mechanism. Your hammer just needs to be jostled or bumped a little bit to complete the firing sequence....
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    Because, the hammer is touching the firing mechanism with a round in the chamber. The gun is fired by the hammer striking the firing mechanism. Your hammer just needs to be jostled or bumped a little bit to complete the firing sequence....
    I dunno, and I'm sure someone smarter will tell me that. When the hammer is seated all the way down there is no
    way it can move forward, and the tiny portion of the firing pin which protrudes from the firing pin stop is already
    depressed. Even depressed, the business end of the firing pin is still held back from the primer by the firing pin spring and
    the firing pin still has some distance to travel. I don't see how it could gain any momentum for firing.
    I think the firing pin lock is also keeping it from moving forward unless the trigger is pulled.

    I'll gladly bow to someone with more expertise on this matter.

    Where's JD when we need him?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I dunno, and I'm sure someone smarter will tell me that. When the hammer is seated all the way down there is no
    way it can move forward, and the tiny portion of the firing pin which protrudes from the firing pin stop is already
    depressed. Even depressed, the business end of the firing pin is still held back from the primer by the firing pin spring and
    the firing pin still has some distance to travel. I don't see how it could gain any momentum for firing.
    I think the firing pin lock is also keeping it from moving forward unless the trigger is pulled.

    I'll gladly bow to someone with more expertise on this matter.

    Where's JD when we need him?
    As far as the firing pin safety, the trigger has to be pulled to lower the hammer, so my understanding is that it is disengaged.

    As to the others, I am thumbing through the manual now and will get back to you
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    I didn't encounter anything else in the manual, other than a warning not to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber (pg. 14).

    I may have overstated the case, but my understanding was that a slight amount of force could cause the firing pin to move forward and contact the primer (possibly igniting it). I am by no means a gunsmith, so my understanding could be wrong, but I surely wouldn't risk a ND by carrying that way.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    I didn't encounter anything else in the manual, other than a warning not to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber (pg. 14).

    I may have overstated the case, but my understanding was that a slight amount of force could cause the firing pin to move forward and contact the primer (possibly igniting it). I am by no means a gunsmith, so my understanding could be wrong, but I surely wouldn't risk a ND by carrying that way.
    I don't think that is a good way to carry it (designed for cocked and locked), but having taken the Mustang (don't know if there are significant differences
    from the 238) apart a few times I really can not see how you could get the firing pin to hit the primer
    when the hammer is all the way down, and especially if the safety is also on. That firing pin lock is probably what saved my
    backside when the hammer unexpectedly fell. To this day I don't know why, except that it happened when I inserted
    a magazine and sort of slammed in hard. As I wrote earlier there is a super slow motion horror video in my mind of that
    hammer falling. I didn't think the human eye /mind could see it :-

    Looking at my Mustang manual there seems to be a firing pin lock that is released independently from the hammer
    only when the trigger is pulled.

    I know I have done some experiments at the range with the hammer (don't know the right term) on the half stop (?).
    Pulled the trigger and let the hammer fall the last little bit, and that would not fire the gun.

    Two things are needed, momentum from the full swing of the hammer, and removal of the firing pin lock by
    activating the trigger. Absent both, a healthy gun should not fire under the conditions being discussed.

    Again, just my opinion, YMMV, and I'd be happy to be informed otherwise (or be confirmed in my belief) by someone who really knows.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Member Array Joonbi's Avatar
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    I carry in condition 3 now, but was just educating myself. I know condition 3 is not the choice for most but for now this is my choice. I have read where accidents have happened with innocent being hurt. I would rather myself be hurt than a child or other. I know some will say that educated and informed people shouldn't have a nd but it has happened even by well informed people. Accidents can happen. Ok now you guys can let me have it.

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