Rosen and Kramer ??

This is a discussion on Rosen and Kramer ?? within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Where do Mitch Rosen and Kramer fit into the holster world? Both appear to make near custom made quality looking holsters, and they are certainly ...

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Thread: Rosen and Kramer ??

  1. #1
    Member Array Waynefi's Avatar
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    Rosen and Kramer ??

    Where do Mitch Rosen and Kramer fit into the holster world? Both appear to make near custom made quality looking holsters, and they are certainly some of the most expensive! But both looking to be large production type companies. One thing I noticed about a Kramer I had awhile back, was that it was the hardest cowhide holster I ever saw.

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    Senior Member Array torrejon224's Avatar
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    Probably like comparing apples to oranges! Rosen is a maker of very high quality leather and their prices show it!! Kramer although they make some very good products and are also exspensive tends to specialize in horsehide. I own several of Kramers holster and one sharkskin belt, the holsters are MSP paddles which IMO are the best paddle rigs on the market. Rosen's products are highly detailed and boned and they show it. Kramers for lack of a better word tend to look mass produced although they aren't. Put them side to side and you'll see what I'm talking about. Even Rosen's Express Line" appear to show more detailing then Kramers but horsehide is probably a harder leather to work with. Maybe one of the makers could jump in on this.
    Last edited by Gary Brommeland; January 15th, 2007 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Removed inflammatory statement

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    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    I've own both Rosen and Kramer and I ditched my Kramer. Rosen is very high quality and simply eligant. Kramer is harsh, hard and unforgiving. The most uncomfortable ITP rig I ever wore was a Kramer, but the agent I traded it to, loves it (but then again he had never worn a Rosen, Sparks or Garrity.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

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    Senior Member Array LoveLeather's Avatar
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    I look to the tribe for lawyers and doctors...but all my leather ends in a vowel....


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    Member Array richardoldfield's Avatar
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    Mitch Rosen's top of the line are custom holsters and a little bit better than Kramers. Kramers are equal to or better than Rosen's low cost line. Regards, Richard

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    Member Array orangehole's Avatar
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    Kramer and Rosen are easily in the top 10 best holster makers. Kramer's leather is stiff and tuff as nails. Rosen's leather pays alot more attention to detail and it shows. Both are great artists of leather and you can't go wrong with either of their products. If I were in need of a daily rig against harsh elements (full time LEO) I would chose a Kramer rig. If I were a casual CCW, I would go with a Rosen. Right now I think Matt Del Fatti is the finest holster maker out there today and it shows with a 2 year wait on his products.

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Lets make that list.

    Milt Sparks
    Mitch Rosen
    Matt Del Fatti
    Brommland
    Garrity
    Bullman
    Horseshoe
    K.L. Null
    Andrews
    Mernickle

    And thats just 10 off my head.

    Personally I compair Greg's (Kramers) work to that of Steve & Della of Rafter S Gunleather. They both make heavy duty quality geat that does the job, but isnt as nice as can be had. Only difference is that Greg charges for his rigs the same that you'll pay for a higher quality with better fit and finish from other makers. Rafter S just charges for what they are. A good holster that does the job.

    But through it all it up to each persons opinion. Some folks out there think that carrying a full Rosen rig is to "flashy" and would stick with a uncle mikes rig. For me, a good gun gets great holsters.

    Steve
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

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    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    I like Kramer horsehide

    I have several Kramer horsehide holsters but don't own a Rosen, so I can't compare them. I do like the Kramer horsehide belt scabbards, which are made of a hard horsehide and wear like iron. The Kramer holsters stay open for reholstering without any internal steel supports or leather reinforcing strips - that is how stiff they are.

    The Kramers are fairly plain and without ornamentation compared to other makes. They seem to be "all business" with no frills. The Kramers hold up well over time, and don't start to sag. Here is one of mine:


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    los
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    Photo of my HK USPc45 with a Mitch Rosen 5JR. Note the precise boning and impeccable dyeing and stitching.

    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  11. #10
    Member Array Mark Garrity's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call either a "large production-type company". Both men started as one-man shops. Last I heard, Kramer currently has about 5 employees and Rosen 9. I have heard that Kramer once worked for Desantis Holsters (which is a large production company) but don't hold me to that (though some of their early designs are very similar). Kramer made his name by making his holsters exclusively in horsehide when he started out, and touting it as the be-all/end-all holster material. "No frills" is the best term I've heard to describe his products. They are simple and functional; pressure molded with no detail boning. But, yes - horsehide is much harder to work with.
    Rosen was a New York stock broker who became a holster-maker after being mugged one too many times and taking Ayoob's LFI course. His leather experience comes from his father, who made purses and briefcases. This may explain why Rosen's stuff loooks more elegant; getting his experience from that part of the industry rather than , say, a saddle-maker. Rosen established himself early on as the holster-maker of the CEO, and even advertised in The Robb Report magazine at one time instead of gun magazines. His designs are well-thought out, as evidenced by how many have been copied by mass-production outfits. At one time I thought his molding was second to none, but recently they have appeared less detailed (and I'm not referring to his Express Line which is pressure-molded only).
    Admiring the work of Rosen and Brommeland in the early 90s is what got me statrted in holster-making.
    I don't think you'd go wrong getting a holster from Rosen or Kramer. It's a matter of your personal prefernce and style.

    As to the comment by Lou Alessi posted by Torrejon224; just to clear things up on Lou's behalf I can assure you it doesn't stem from being a competitor. Lou is very receptive and cordial to others in the business, and a genuine nice guy. (And fed-wif-a-sig, you need to put Alessi near the top of your list). I won't bad-mouth someone on a forum when he's not here to defend himself, but let's just say Rosen's personal attitude detracts from his work sometimes.
    And neither Rosen or Kramer will offer any assistance or advice to a new-comer, but that's their perogative I guess.
    Last edited by Mark Garrity; January 14th, 2007 at 05:50 PM.
    "He who makes things with his hands is a laborer, he who makes things with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who makes things with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
    www.garritysgunleather.com

  12. #11
    Member Array orangehole's Avatar
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    Mark,Thanks for the great background info on those 2 makers. I didn't know Rosen was a stock broker and that Kramer worked at Desantis.

    I'll go ahead with my list of top 10 makers in no particular order

    Kramer
    Rosen
    Sparks
    Matt Del Fatti
    Mark Garrity
    Josh Bulman
    Brommland
    Jim Murnak at FIST
    Lou Alessi
    I think there are about 10 more I could add to the last spot. There are alot of newer small one man operations that are really pumping out some impressive leather. (K&D, UBG,HBE, etc..)

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Mark thanks for the advice. I have never owned or barrowed any of Lou's work but will keep that in mind. Several years ago I worked with Greg in an attempt to get him to modify on of his designs I since I have told him this personally I can say that I found him knowlegable but unmoving on his designs. Other impressions he left caused me to remove him from my list. However, like pogo2 said his gear is "hard" and "wears like iron". Me I prefer my gear to not be that rough on my hips when I'm carrying 18+ hours a day.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

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    Member Array T. Kanaley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Garrity View Post
    And neither Rosen or Kramer will offer any assistance or advice to a new-comer, but that's their perogative I guess.
    Ironically, I spent a quite a bit of time on the phone with Mitch when he was first starting out. But regardless, I can't say I would blame him for not wanting to spend hours on the phone giving out free advice to someone starting out in the trade. Especially if they are extremely backlogged and their time would be better spent working on actual customer orders.

    I just don't think its a valid critisism. Praise those who have shared if they have been helpful to you, but as you say, it's a matter of perogative not obligation.

    Good post though!
    Second Best is not an option

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    Member Array richardoldfield's Avatar
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    Mark Garrity, I side with you. I had problems with a used Rosen Tuckable and Mitch did not want to deal with the issues even though the holster was like new. I nagged him until he corrected the holster. I have purchased some of his other holsters and the work was superb. Uncle Lou Alessi is the most talkative of the leather craftsmen I have dealt with. I guess in the end all of the better holster makers have merit. Regards, Richard

    PS I love Tony's Mirage belt slide, it is the best I have seen or used

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    Member Array LTPhoon's Avatar
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    In the course of trying to determine what I needed or wanted or wanted to know more about, I have talked to Sam Andrews, Jim Speidel (The Beltman), Kevin Manley of K&D Holsters, Matt Del Fatti, and Mrs. Rosen. I have also spoken with suppliers such as Phil Smith of CCWSUPPLY.BIZ, Jerry of Ordnance Outsellers, the proprietor of Security and Safety Supply in Brunswick, Maine and others over time. They all spent time far beyond that necessary to answer a few questions about cost and delivery schedules. They made me feel as welcome as if they had personally invited me to their shop to educate me in materials, methods, their philosophy of doing business with all segments of the firearms community and why they do what they do and how much they enjoy doing it. Nobody talked down to me or made me feel like I was imposing on them in any way. I was invited to call again if I had any questions about anything. As a result, I feel I can call anybody about anything and get a cordial, straight answer.

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