Please Read This
This is a discussion on Please Read This within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by The Tourist
As we go to modern times, the city of New York Police Department had one of the best 'hits per ...
May 24th, 2005 02:55 PM
+1. It's important to remember that, overall, IIRC, PD in general averages about 3 rounds expended for each hit, </=25 yds. This is where training comes in. The "average" banger runs roughly twice that (6 shots/hit @ >10 yds). If you train, time and distance are your allies.
Originally Posted by The Tourist
If you have to draw, you are most likely "drawing into the drop"- the BG will already have their weapon out. You can't carry your 1911 in-hand as you cart groceries into the house/to your car. You can carry a can of key-chain OC/CS (with only 1 house and 1 or two car keys attached), or a "stylus" , or something akin to a Kershaw Leek, in your fist. By having to draw, you have to recognize that your situational awareness has already failed (unless, for instance, you are interceding to prevent a homicide), and it very unlikely (but not impossible) that the agressor will pick a moment when you have a free hand.
The jewelry store owner is a prime example of social-conditioning: he should have turned to "adjust himself", and kept his drawn weapon by his side. He hoped it wouldn't escalate. I've PO'd my wife on more than one occassion by answering the door at night with a long knife hiding behind my forearm. Preparation and mindset.
But back to the issue of speed: can you draw in the space between two cars? Can you draw on your back? On your side? If the pistol is your primary response tool, the training need is exponentially increased. I don't have a place I can live-fire, dropping on my back, etc., etc., so I carry tools besides a hammer. I have three "regions" I carry a weapon of some sort. The "region" I can access determines the immediate level of response. (Will it be folding knife, HAK/pistol, OC, light/impact device, Cross pens, etc..) The tool I start with may not be the most appropriate, but it serves (hopefully!) to buy time and space.
May 24th, 2005 03:03 PM
This is why I decided when I got interested in CCW I needed a small, safety-less gun that could slip in and out of a trouser pocket.
Access is as quick as it gets, it's easy on easy off, it fits in my wardrobe.
Now is a .38 caliber snubnose a gun I particularly relish using in a real honest to goodness fight? Lord no.
Now on the other side of this argument, I do feel a gun 10 seconds away is so much better than a gun 10 minutes away. I've read and heard people say "I just wish there'd been a gun somewhere... I could have done something."
My personal preference, what I aspire to, is to carry two guns. One small and quick to access at social distances, and another one better suited to personal protection.
May 24th, 2005 03:16 PM
Well, after reading some of the posts in this thread, I reckon I don't want to get in a gun fight with y'all.
Fortunately, I don't end up in many "fast draw" gunfights anyway, so I guess it's not much of a concern for me.
Seriously, there are many summertime situations (for me) where the choice is:
1- snubby in deep concealment
2- no gun
For instance, I coach T-ball 4 nights a week.. I have to wear shorts and a tucked in jersey. Or spending a day at the beach wearing shorts and a tank top (or no top). A cover garment is not an option alot of the time in my social circles.
Do we need to review my 2 options again? Take yer pick, but I know which one I'm picking.
Before I owned a "deep cover" holster, there were times a carried a gun, and times I couldn't.
Now that I have more carry options, I can carry more often.
In closing, make no mistake about it. My first choice is always my 1911 in an IWB holster under an unbuttoned open shirt. But when that methos of carry is not possible...I'll go with a j-frame in a smart carry holster rather than going without.
Last edited by sarhog; May 24th, 2005 at 03:49 PM.
NRA Life Member
Northwest Florida Defensive Pistol Shooters Member
May 24th, 2005 04:29 PM
Alright here is a thought that has not been mentioned yet. Someone new to CCW just spent a good amount of money on class, fingerprints, application, etc. Perhaps bought a handgun to carry and found out the nylon holster they bought out of the sales bin at the gun shop won't conceal under a parka. Some of these deep concealment items seem like a good deal. The advertising is good and why spend $70 on a leather holster, $100 on a gun belt, and $30 on a mag carrier that will only fit one gun when you can get a Kramer shirt or Smart carry for $40-$50 and carry almost any gun with it.
I go for the good leather because I want a comfortable carry and quicker presentation. If I draw I am most likely already a step behind. I am sure there are times for alternative deep concealment but overall I perfer a strong side belt holster. Just my .02 cents.
May 24th, 2005 05:05 PM
Man...are we ever reading off the very same page today!
Good comment ~ Thanks.
May 24th, 2005 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by QKShooter
And I assume this is based on your extensive testing with a SmartCarry ? It's more than a little pompous on your part to be telling other people how to carry and what will work best for them.
May 24th, 2005 05:30 PM
Dont make it personal ... personal attacks wont be allowed youve been warned
May 24th, 2005 05:55 PM
I read nothing in QK's post that deserved this response...maybe you should re-read again from a different angle!
Originally Posted by SpecialT
Kimber Ultra CDP Elite STS II
A gun is a tool...the real weapon is between your ears!
May 24th, 2005 06:26 PM
Reply From Pompous Moderator
"And I assume this is based on your extensive testing with a SmartCarry ? It's more than a little pompous on your part to be telling other people how to carry and what will work best for them."
I'll respond to SpecialT even though he accidentally slipped & fell off the edge of the Forum.
Yes, I did "test" try both Smart Carry & Thunderwear and The Kramer UnConfident Shirt was one of the very first accessory purchases that I made back when I first started to carry. That was before they started marketing it as suitable for Deep Cover only.
Some of my very first wasted firearm dollars were on the Kramer Confident. Did I extensively test them over a long period of time???
No, I did not.
I got rid of them very quickly and I guess you just found out what that feels like.
My opinions are only just that...and my only intention is to attempt to save some forum members some money on some carry ideas that are honestly not really ideally suitable for fast, practical, everyday self~defense even though they DO serve a purpose for deep carry when nothing else will work.
By The Way: ~ I very much would like "Carry People" to get out of the Security Blanket mindset of just having a firearm with them. Having it is only part of the game. The ability to bring it into play quickly, smoothly, and efficiently with no digging and fumble will save innocent lives. That is my true concern.
May 24th, 2005 06:27 PM
Ummmm nope. I disagree. The "fastest gun in the West" has to go to Doc Holiday in his prime, before his TB ate him down to the bone.
Originally Posted by The Tourist
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
May 24th, 2005 08:04 PM
May 24th, 2005 08:39 PM
1952 - 2006
I've not found mentioned the one method I use to carry when all normal carry methods are unavailable and that is the belly bag. Though I agree that they are a neon sign to your average CCW holder it is still better than not carrying at all. When at the beach or somewhere I cannot wear a cover garmet it's what I have my Kimber CDP compact extra mags and Surefire 6P in.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
May 24th, 2005 11:40 PM
I have tried a lot of different holsters (spending alot of money in the process) and have to admit now that I have high quality, custom leather holsters for both IWB and OWB carry, I doubt I need anything else. I still want a good (leather) shoulder holster and possibly a (leather) crossdraw, I don't really want to be digging in my pants. I did enough of that when I was a kid.
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
May 24th, 2005 11:42 PM
May 25th, 2005 01:56 AM
QK, since I have started to carry concealed just a couple of months ago, I'm glad you posted this subject. I have been working out the best combinations to conceal, and now have started to be concerned about quick access. The comments here reinforce my thoughts on the need to respond to a threat with a pretty fast draw and effective shooting skills. I agree the Wyatt Earp comparison is not valid for the kind of threat I might encounter. I also agree that the Smart Carry or Thunderwear are not for me.
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