Please Read This

This is a discussion on Please Read This within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by The Tourist As we go to modern times, the city of New York Police Department had one of the best 'hits per ...

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Thread: Please Read This

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tourist
    As we go to modern times, the city of New York Police Department had one of the best 'hits per shots' record of any agency. Their force of 10,000 officers carried .38 SPLs in full coverage holsters.
    +1. It's important to remember that, overall, IIRC, PD in general averages about 3 rounds expended for each hit, </=25 yds. This is where training comes in. The "average" banger runs roughly twice that (6 shots/hit @ >10 yds). If you train, time and distance are your allies.

    If you have to draw, you are most likely "drawing into the drop"- the BG will already have their weapon out. You can't carry your 1911 in-hand as you cart groceries into the house/to your car. You can carry a can of key-chain OC/CS (with only 1 house and 1 or two car keys attached), or a "stylus" , or something akin to a Kershaw Leek, in your fist. By having to draw, you have to recognize that your situational awareness has already failed (unless, for instance, you are interceding to prevent a homicide), and it very unlikely (but not impossible) that the agressor will pick a moment when you have a free hand.

    The jewelry store owner is a prime example of social-conditioning: he should have turned to "adjust himself", and kept his drawn weapon by his side. He hoped it wouldn't escalate. I've PO'd my wife on more than one occassion by answering the door at night with a long knife hiding behind my forearm. Preparation and mindset.

    But back to the issue of speed: can you draw in the space between two cars? Can you draw on your back? On your side? If the pistol is your primary response tool, the training need is exponentially increased. I don't have a place I can live-fire, dropping on my back, etc., etc., so I carry tools besides a hammer. I have three "regions" I carry a weapon of some sort. The "region" I can access determines the immediate level of response. (Will it be folding knife, HAK/pistol, OC, light/impact device, Cross pens, etc..) The tool I start with may not be the most appropriate, but it serves (hopefully!) to buy time and space.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    This is why I decided when I got interested in CCW I needed a small, safety-less gun that could slip in and out of a trouser pocket.

    Access is as quick as it gets, it's easy on easy off, it fits in my wardrobe.

    Now is a .38 caliber snubnose a gun I particularly relish using in a real honest to goodness fight? Lord no.

    Now on the other side of this argument, I do feel a gun 10 seconds away is so much better than a gun 10 minutes away. I've read and heard people say "I just wish there'd been a gun somewhere... I could have done something."

    My personal preference, what I aspire to, is to carry two guns. One small and quick to access at social distances, and another one better suited to personal protection.

  4. #18
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    Well, after reading some of the posts in this thread, I reckon I don't want to get in a gun fight with y'all.
    Fortunately, I don't end up in many "fast draw" gunfights anyway, so I guess it's not much of a concern for me.
    Seriously, there are many summertime situations (for me) where the choice is:
    1- snubby in deep concealment
    2- no gun

    For instance, I coach T-ball 4 nights a week.. I have to wear shorts and a tucked in jersey. Or spending a day at the beach wearing shorts and a tank top (or no top). A cover garment is not an option alot of the time in my social circles.

    Do we need to review my 2 options again? Take yer pick, but I know which one I'm picking.

    Before I owned a "deep cover" holster, there were times a carried a gun, and times I couldn't.
    Now that I have more carry options, I can carry more often.

    In closing, make no mistake about it. My first choice is always my 1911 in an IWB holster under an unbuttoned open shirt. But when that methos of carry is not possible...I'll go with a j-frame in a smart carry holster rather than going without.
    YMMV, Goodluck.
    Last edited by sarhog; May 24th, 2005 at 03:49 PM.
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  5. #19
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    Alright here is a thought that has not been mentioned yet. Someone new to CCW just spent a good amount of money on class, fingerprints, application, etc. Perhaps bought a handgun to carry and found out the nylon holster they bought out of the sales bin at the gun shop won't conceal under a parka. Some of these deep concealment items seem like a good deal. The advertising is good and why spend $70 on a leather holster, $100 on a gun belt, and $30 on a mag carrier that will only fit one gun when you can get a Kramer shirt or Smart carry for $40-$50 and carry almost any gun with it.
    I go for the good leather because I want a comfortable carry and quicker presentation. If I draw I am most likely already a step behind. I am sure there are times for alternative deep concealment but overall I perfer a strong side belt holster. Just my .02 cents.

  6. #20
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    Thumbs up Brian45

    Man...are we ever reading off the very same page today!
    Good comment ~ Thanks.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    I dunno ...What do you guys think is a suitable amount of time for you to be able to get access to your carry weapon if you ever REALLY NEED IT in a super big hurry?
    I'm being really serious here.
    In fact...I've never been more serious than right now on this forum.
    I see these threads popping up for Smart Carry & Thunderwear The Kramer Confident Shirt...to mention the "top three" (at the bottom of the barrel) & I would humbly like to suggest that you not even consider that much Deep Firearm Concealment unless you really need it for some good and very specific reason.
    If that is the ONLY WAY that you can secrete a firearm "on your person" rather than NOT be able to have that firearm "On Your Person" then Go For It.
    You maybe want one for your Back Up Gun? ~ Go for it.
    Otherwise...just plain forget it.
    My fear is that someday the coroner is going to maybe find some of you good folks stone/cold/stiff and with your "gun hand" either jammed down your pants or stuck up under your armpit.
    Having a firearm with you will not keep you either safe or alive.
    Having a firearm with you and being able to present and fire that weapon before the BG kills you...will keep you safe and alive.
    "Plenty Of Time" is probably not ever a luxury that you'll have in good defensive shooting.
    Whatever "mode of carry" EVEN SLIGHTLY impedes your ability to get your muzzle on target ASAP should NEVER be considered as your first choice carry option.
    You would HONESTLY be better served with your hand already on a little .25 caliber DAO semi~auto in your coat pocket than with a Compact .45 stuck guarding your family jewels way down there inside your pants.
    Please shop around for a high quality holster designed by a good professional maker.
    Buy yourself a good gun belt.
    Please try some various holster cants & styles and O'clock positions & then tailor your wardrobe toward good concealment coupled with fast access to your carry firearm.
    When the youthful Bad Guy suddenly pops up & is tearing full speed ahead around your car with a tire iron over his head and your head is his intended immediate target...where is YOUR particular gun hand gonna be?
    I'm just wondering.
    Go ahead...rate this thread.

    And I assume this is based on your extensive testing with a SmartCarry ? It's more than a little pompous on your part to be telling other people how to carry and what will work best for them.

  8. #22
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    Dont make it personal ... personal attacks wont be allowed youve been warned

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialT
    And I assume this is based on your extensive testing with a SmartCarry ? It's more than a little pompous on your part to be telling other people how to carry and what will work best for them.
    I read nothing in QK's post that deserved this response...maybe you should re-read again from a different angle!

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  10. #24
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    Reply From Pompous Moderator

    "And I assume this is based on your extensive testing with a SmartCarry ? It's more than a little pompous on your part to be telling other people how to carry and what will work best for them."

    I'll respond to SpecialT even though he accidentally slipped & fell off the edge of the Forum.
    Yes, I did "test" try both Smart Carry & Thunderwear and The Kramer UnConfident Shirt was one of the very first accessory purchases that I made back when I first started to carry. That was before they started marketing it as suitable for Deep Cover only.
    Some of my very first wasted firearm dollars were on the Kramer Confident. Did I extensively test them over a long period of time???
    No, I did not.
    I got rid of them very quickly and I guess you just found out what that feels like.
    My opinions are only just that...and my only intention is to attempt to save some forum members some money on some carry ideas that are honestly not really ideally suitable for fast, practical, everyday self~defense even though they DO serve a purpose for deep carry when nothing else will work.


    By The Way: ~ I very much would like "Carry People" to get out of the Security Blanket mindset of just having a firearm with them. Having it is only part of the game. The ability to bring it into play quickly, smoothly, and efficiently with no digging and fumble will save innocent lives. That is my true concern.

  11. #25
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    Cool Fastest Gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tourist
    The fastest gunfighter in those days was John Wesley Hardin. He died from being shot in the back of the head. All of his speed and power failed to protect him from poor situational awareness and a guy with steady aim. Same for Bill Hickock. Same for Curly Bill Brocius. Same for Jesse James.
    Ummmm nope. I disagree. The "fastest gun in the West" has to go to Doc Holiday in his prime, before his TB ate him down to the bone.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  12. #26
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    Thumbs up Gunfighter Joke

    OK...I'm editing out this joke & posting it the humor section. I hate to put it in the humor area since it's not too funny...but I'll put it over there anyway.
    It shouldn't be here.
    Last edited by QKShooter; May 24th, 2005 at 11:48 PM.

  13. #27
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    I've not found mentioned the one method I use to carry when all normal carry methods are unavailable and that is the belly bag. Though I agree that they are a neon sign to your average CCW holder it is still better than not carrying at all. When at the beach or somewhere I cannot wear a cover garmet it's what I have my Kimber CDP compact extra mags and Surefire 6P in.
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    I have tried a lot of different holsters (spending alot of money in the process) and have to admit now that I have high quality, custom leather holsters for both IWB and OWB carry, I doubt I need anything else. I still want a good (leather) shoulder holster and possibly a (leather) crossdraw, I don't really want to be digging in my pants. I did enough of that when I was a kid.
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  15. #29
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    Belly Bags Fanny Packs

    I know I still see them a lot in PGH.
    Lots of seniors are wearing them & joggers & especially the foreign students in Oakland so in my area I don't think they yell "gun" at all.
    The ones that are specifically designed to give you a good quick grab of your carry gun are fine.
    Stencil...Save The Whales on it & that should work perfectly!
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  16. #30
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    QK, since I have started to carry concealed just a couple of months ago, I'm glad you posted this subject. I have been working out the best combinations to conceal, and now have started to be concerned about quick access. The comments here reinforce my thoughts on the need to respond to a threat with a pretty fast draw and effective shooting skills. I agree the Wyatt Earp comparison is not valid for the kind of threat I might encounter. I also agree that the Smart Carry or Thunderwear are not for me.

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