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Another Holster Maker

4K views 35 replies 25 participants last post by  Rock 
#1 ·
I know that Milt Sparks is an advertiser here and from what I have heard his holsters are outstanding. I have also heard a lot of people ask about alternatives because of the wait time.

I saw this Post over at Glock Talk about a Versa-Max II Clone that seems to be well received and thought our members may want to take a look.

The Company is TTGunLeather. Apparently he started on fleebay and has managed to get a site up and running as well.

If anyone has experience with them, please let the rest of us know.
 
#2 ·
There are some other makers and people that are upset about the clones that they make being direct copies of Sparks' stuff. I've never had either in my hand to know one way or the other. I know that the stitching on one of the holsters on his site looks like trash to me, but maybe I'm just not used to seeing black thread all over a tanned holster.
 
#3 ·
I bought one for my 1911 and it fits me better then the VMII my friend has. JD thought that the fit and finish wasn't as good on them, but I love mine. I just ordered a second one for my sig p226. He also said the VMII kydex clips will work on it for tucking, and he is coming out with his own clips soon. Here is a pic of mine.

 
#11 ·
Looks to me like he just didn't just use the Sparks design for inspiration. Looks like he outright stole it to me.
Just my personal opinion on that.
I've made my living as a skilled craftsman, albeit in another field, for most of my adult life. Much of it running my own business. One thing I refuse to do is support the business of someone who rips off anothers creation. This is a theft of design and concept. Sorry folks, just call 'em like I see 'em and that's how I see it. This is not the only outfit stealing others work as well. None of them will ever get my business. I'll wait for the real thing.

Wal Mart mentality says I want it now and I want it cheap. Go for it, that's why we are losing our industrial base. When you want a finely crafted piece of work, go to the originator and be patient. If I want a custom pistol created and tuned by a master I'm gonna have to wait and not settle for a Raven .25.
 
#8 ·
It's a great design, possibly the best for IWB. Looks good. :yup:
 
#10 ·
What I said previously said was:

We got Lima's in today, I'll be taking some comparison picks of the TT rig and my VMII (which Lima should no longer be stealing :wink:).

I like the double stitching closer to the body, what I'm not overly fond of yet is that the sweat shield and reinforced area kind of bulge out and is thicker in terms of width away from the body, compared to the VMII.

But for the price being under $70 with a 3 week wait, it's hard to complain.

The leather itself is pretty darn good, with only one slight imperfection on the sweat sheild.

The curved sweat shield is nice for getting a firm grip from the draw, however, as it as not as tightly molded as the VMII, it's not as C&L friendly as you actually have to get your thumb in between the sweat shield and the firearm to get a high-thumb grip, and get your thumb on top of the safety, on the VMII my thumb will ride between the shield and my body and fall right to the safety after drawing.

Oh well, you'll get what I'm saying after I take the pics tomorrow or Friday.

Overall I am very pleased with the workmanship holster and the quick turnaround time
, but as is the case with holsters, only time worn will tell the true tale.

So here's the pics finally.

Here's the VMII on the left, with the TT on the right.


Again the VMII on the left the TT on the right, you can slightly the difference in overall thickness in this shot.


VMII (L) TT (R) Here you can definitely see the difference in thickness.


VMII (R) TT (L) Here you can see the differences in the sweat shield


This is a close up of the reinforced band in the opening of the VMII, still pretty sleek.


Here's a close up of the TT reinforced opening, not too bad, but you can see where the band is protruding a little bit. the over all shape of the opening is what's causing the TT rig to be thicker, looking back at the first picture, you can see that the band rides higher on the TT rig, and adds more to the thickness.



Over all it's not a bad rig for the price, and a 3 week wait isn't bad but I'll stick to my VMII.
 
#12 ·
Looks like from JD's pics that there are some subtle differences. 1 being the double stitch going down the side of the gun pouch. 2 being the sweat shield. Looks like he's using a little thicker leather also.

Course I could be going blind ... :embarassed:
 
#13 ·
My opinion is that competition is healthy and neccessary in all business. It encourages overall quality and value. I find humor in other people's opinions about "stealing" designs and concepts like it's morally offensive and should be illegal or something. Seems like TT found a holster design that was popular and that worked. If they can create a holster using that general design and can sell it for some kind of profit which happens to be significantly less than Sparks sells theirs for then yay for consumers. Now it does look like there's some difference in construction so they aren't identical. Unless they went to the Sparks shop and literally stole the designs than they didn't do anything morally wrong. If anything it can be viewed as flattery. I think everyone will agree that the reason you pay good money for a custom holster is in part for the level of craftsmanship the custom makers offer. That's why some holster makers get $150 per holster vs. $75. Not everyone cares that much for top dollar craftsmanship. They just want a holster that works and looking pretty isn't high on the list of priorities. Count me in to that group. I use a Crossbreed SuperTuck and noone can claim it'll win beauty contests, but it allows me to stay armed when other holsters won't.

Just from being on this forum for this past year I can see that there's no shortage for the demand of holsters. With many holster makers extending out their waiting periods past the 3 to 4 month mark it's no surprise that new makers will pop up to help fill in the need.
 
#15 ·
Do you run a business? Do you count on it as your livelihood? Have you designed a product - investing time (and money) to produce something that is safe and functional for the greatest number of people that you can? If not, I would encourage you to do so. Then you may understand why there are some of us who tend to have a great disdain for those who copy another's designs for nothing more to profit from. The "differences" cited here are really minor and are a poor excuse on the part of the holster maker to try and make the holster different from the VM2. I've even had people tell me that since the dye is a different color than what we use on the design he ripped off from us, that it made it different. :rolleyes: Support of these rip-off "artists," and I use that word loosely, does nothing more than perpetuate and encourage their actions.

Yes, the designs of many holsters today are influenced by those who have come before. It will always be that way, and that's where the flattery to the originator is derived from. Duplication of one's design, in the sense we're talking about here, is not flattery.

Obviously I cannot, and will not even venture, comment on how Milt Sparks arrives at their price point for their holsters. I know quality is a big factor. Have you had the opportunity to personally look at and handle a VM2? I had one in my hands just yesterday (not the first time). Have you had the opportunity to have a Tucker "Answer" in your hands to personally look at? I have. Top quality in my opinion. And, yes, I've compared it with some of the similar styles available. If you've had the opportunity to make these comparisons, then it makes it a bit easier to understand why there's a price difference - top quality vs something less than that. Quality of material and craftsmanship makes a difference in function and durability of a holster - period.

Price points for holsters are from one end of the spectrum to the other, and styles are as varied as any number of products out there. And that's where competition is healthy - not in the ripping off of another's design.
 
#22 ·
Yep, Paris Theodore was a visionary and quite the character. He sold Seventrees manufacturing rights to both Ken Null and Lou Alessi and then turned around a few years later and sued both of them. Or so I'm told anyway. Good thing there wasn't an internet around back then. :rolleyes:

Anyhoo, here's a shot from the Seventrees catalog that I had squirelled away.
 
#20 ·
Well, I wouldn't buy one because it's an obvious blatent rip off to me.
Geesh...He didn't even try to put his MAKER stamp in an original location.:blink:
To each his own though. I have no control over if somebody else wants to buy one but, I won't.
 
#21 ·
I think that many makers do develop their own designs from those who have come before.
Since this thread addresses such, I would be interesting in hearing from makers as to where does copying end and one's own design begin. That is not an argument question, but just a matter of interest.

I notice that many holster makers are making a design where the loops are not at the mouth of the holsters, such as the VM2, and Kevin's Laredo Defender. If I remember Kevin has stated that it is based upon an Alessi design. I see nothing wrong with that. I have one of Kevin's Laredo Defenders, and it is a great holster.
I also have two of Tony's ExC and they are my favorite IWB holsters.

I am not sure who started that design, but someone had the idea first. So my question as to where copying and a take off separate?
Again, do not take this question and comments as being critical or argumentative.

Regards,
Jerry
 
#28 ·
After I had designed the Laredo Defender, I contacted Lou and showed him a picture of it and asked him if he thought it too closely resembled his CQC/S. His response? No, it did not and he thanked me for asking. IMO, if you take the time to do something like that, then you'll alleviate anybody coming along and saying that you're ripping off another's design.

I think there can be at times a very fuzzy line as to where one design ends and the other begins. There are some clear cut differences at times also. I don't know that taking a single feature/function from another's holster design and adding/incorporating it into your own design would be a rip off. I know some holster makers do have patents on certain functions of the product they make.
 
#23 ·
In my opinion, every holster maker after the ones originating the said design is a rip off artist. I have heard no one rip on wild bills for having a complete rip off of the summer special, the "Summer Heat", or galco for their royal guard ripping off the same holster. I have seen a few other holster makers pop up here and there and guess what, they have the same designs as everyone else. If you don't want to buy the holster then don't buy it, but don't bad mouth the guy for using a design that is pretty well proven. Many holster designers have done it and are doing it to this day.

If you dont' like competition, get into another line of work. If you sell good products then you won't have to worry about not making any money. With the market that milt sparks has I am sure they are not going to go out of business anytime soon because someone else makes a holster like theirs. They are still doing just fine selling the summer special and there are many designs just like it on the market.

With that said, flame on because I know most are not going to like this post.
 
#25 ·
One, no - two things come to mind.

Immitation is (potentially) the sincerest form of flattery

Second - in the end there is only so much scope for design of things like holsters ....... so almost inevitably there will be some aspects where similarity is so close as to be near a seeming copy.

I am not happy with what might seem a total ''rip-off'' but for sure ..... there have to be limits to what is possible within the options available..
 
#29 ·
part of business and commerce is people trying to make something that someone else has made better or for less. This is an inevitable fact that drives industry. Some people want cheap others want fancy or the best quality. I believe that what a general respect should be shown to competitors and peers alike. If someone is challenging a product that you make, what sets yours apart. We all have reasons why we buy holsters from the makers of our choosing. IMO I'll stick with the holster makers that make the product that works for me. I've been really impressed lately with both K&D leather and UBG holsters for their attitude, and responses to my numerous questions. The prices are what I would expect to pay for a quality holster and they both have come a long way on their designs.
 
#31 ·
Please excuse me for cutting and pasting this reply as this discussion is going on now at at least 3 different forums including this one and I’m beginning to think it’s by no accident. There's a big difference between building on an existing design and outright stealing it. Most makers I know have figured out ways to make a design their own just by adding their own innovations. Course if you're not innovative then I guess you got no choice but to stick to stealing.

Back a few weeks ago in another thread, on another forum, one fella suggested that stealing someone’s ideas/intellectual property to fill a need is a “very American thing” and he’s grateful to the US economic model for providing such an enterprising opportunity. All I can say is if that statement is true and is representative of the US business model, its no wonder that many in the rest of the world hate us. Of course its also a “very American thing” not to give a crap what the rest of the world thinks either, so I guess that wouldn’t make a very strong argument. :rofl:

Since it’s quite apparent from a standpoint of posting anonymously under an AKA on this forum and others, that there will be no retributions for taking the wrong side of an ethical or moral question, should that person be proven wrong. If a person feels so strongly about their convictions and believe they are right, then here’s the true acid test. Why not go to your employer first thing Monday morning and tell the person who signs your paycheck that your morality tells you that it’s perfectly ok to steal another person’s intellectual property and profit from it? :image035:

Perhaps that is what some people do for a living which may explain a lot of things, but I would bet most would be walking down the road kicking a can.

T
 
#32 ·
Patent

My recently approved patent cost $19,000 in legal fees to only file, not including Government patent fees, and now my defending the patent will be another $150,000 in legal cost against a company that has copied it. Two more patents pending and there will be more copiers.

Patents are too expensive for the typical hoster maker and need to rely on competitor business ethics or the buyers.
 
#33 ·
Part of me doesn't like the idea of blatant copying, but I don't know how much difference is necessary to be legitimate. Should Tucker have an exclusive on Leather/Kydex IWB hybrids? Is Minotaur OK becuase they added replaceable bodies, or do they have enough other differences? I think there are a limited number of useful holster designs, so even with no intent to copy it is likely that there will be similarities. I also don't know how long a maker should have exclusive rights to a design.

Even putting intellectual property aside, I don't think Sparks (or Brommeland, or Alessi, or...) will lose any business from these sorts of copies. While the basic shape is similar, the pictures and text made it obvious that the details and overall quality just weren't there in the clone. The people willing to pay for (and wait for) a Sparks holster aren't the same ones who would wear a holster built like that, except possibly as a temp while waiting for the real thing to be delivered.
 
#34 ·
I've bought Hume, Uncle Mike and K&D. I'll settle for any wait time and go with K&D if possible. If I am aware of a copy-cat rip-off, I won't patronize the offender. Sometimes, however, a person might buy without realizing it is a ripped-off copy.
 
#35 ·
Certainly some holster designs are quite "historic" by now and have been "up for grabs" for ages. Such as the Western style Colt SAA holsters.

I also agree that there are only so many ways remaining to mold a piece of leather into a perfectly workable holster that is 100% ideal for concealment.

That does not alter the fact that some modern day leather artisans and craftsman AKA the truly skilled holster makers have spent countless numbers of hours cutting and drawing and working out multitudes of little details in order to perfect maximum comfort, durability and concealability. They have spent a ton of time and wasted a lot of leather getting the bugs worked out. Legally somebody might be able just swipe it and run but that does not make it Kosher.

That being said most leather artists are great people (in general) and are not the sort of folks that would begrudge another holster maker an honest way to make/earn a living making holsters.
It's not easy work and it's not a "cake" way to make a living especially for an individual or small operation.
So a little bit of polite courtesy and asking some permission and giving some due credit would sure go a long way.
Also there is a HUGE difference in just using another holster makers design as inspiration and then coming up with something at least partially innovative and different --- and doing what this guy did which was basically (I'm guessing) to get hold of a Sparks holster...cut it apart and make basically what amounts to an exact traced copy.
Somehow that kinda sucks in a modestly ignorant way.

The saving grace is that the originators usually always continue to make the better product and the "Knock Off" is usually just another somewhat - and in some way - inferior knock off.
I guess that would be because if somebody is not willing invest in their own homework they're probably also of a mindset that is not willing to invest in the very best materials, equipment, and manpower.

SO exactly how much is "free for all" - and free for the taking...??? - I don't pretend to know.
But, I think when you put two rigs (by two different makers) "side by side" and one looks like a near perfect counterfeit of the other in every way, shape, and form then that is "pushing it" as far as being ethical.
Just my personal opinion. I'm sure many will still disagree with me.
 
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