January 13th, 2008 10:39 PM
Good point. I wasn't implying that anyone here is a sheep. I wasn't implying that by not going to the BBB that a person then becomes a sheep. I was simply saying that we are fast to label people as sheep and point out their shortcomings, yet we have trouble seeing shortcomings and wrongdoings in our own community. I more than understand a good craftsman is hard to come by. I understand that we want to support our own inside the gun culture and that forgiveness is a wonderful thing. My point is simply that forgiveness is good to a point.
There are many fine holster manufacturers out there, however there are a few that have problems. I won't mention names, but we know who they are. After reading this thread I have seen many many complaints and even some defensive posts by friends of the craftsmen. While the man himself may be a great guy, once an order with a business is placed, when does the man become a business? My dad told me once to never mix business and friendship.
At some point, unfulfilled promises have to come to an end. At some point if a situation isn't resolved, then it must be taken to a third party for resolution. My question is, when is that point reached? I agree the BBB doesn't want to hear that you got your refund after a year and a half. However I am sure they would like to hear "I have recieved promise after promise and have nothing to show, neither refund nor product." The majority of people here have not recieved anything but empty promises. The majority of people here have even expressed that they can no longer even get in touch with certain manufacturers. That is why the BBB is there. Saying the item is worth the 18 month wait is fine for some. Saying quality takes time is fine. Let's look at the big picture. If a holster maker is 150 orders behind, and charges $100.00 per order up front. Then that holster maker is $15000.00 behind on holster orders. 15 THOUSAND DOLLARS behind seems a bit excessive to just sit back and keep listening to false promises. Eventually a person has to say enough is enough and thats where the BBB comes into play. If Ford kept selling cars they keep promising but don't deliver, how long before people raising hell?
I have read many excuses from the holster makers about leather, supply problems, phone call interruptions, etc... It seems like these shortages affect only certain manufacturers. It also seems like even during these "supply problems" these same manufacturers continued to take orders. Why would a reputable manufacturer keep taking orders not knowing how they acquire the supplies to fill the orders taken, let alone complete old orders?
It may be coincidence that the one person that went to the BBB got their situation resolved (I doubt it was a coincidence though) while the majority of posters here, none of which went to the bbb, are still in perpetual limbo with their order and/or refund. I am not trying to hit on a holster maker, I am not trying to be a troublemaker. I am simply asking why people haven't gone this route. I have used the BBB for an order online that I waited 7 months for, the wife was having some custom made frame for something. I waited 7 months on a 30-day custom order. Finally after exchanging e-mails and getting the runaround, I went the bbb route. Had my item, signed apology note, and 30% refund within 4 weeks. Anyway, I just want to know when enough is enough with this.
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
January 13th, 2008 11:45 PM
I did contact and file a complaint with the BBB concerning Greg Dunn of Ranger Gun Leather. They tried to contact him, receved no reply and evidently gave up. I think some others on this forum tried this route as well. Don't know what else to do.
Last edited by Gunnutty; January 14th, 2008 at 04:52 PM.
We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!
January 14th, 2008 05:00 PM
No, I don't see bashing here. In spite of what Gary has done to many of us, I see mostly facts presented here--order dates, broken promises, non-delivery of goods and in some cases refunds. If this thread turned into a bash it would likely get shut down. The facts are speaking for themselves, though they are not pretty.
Originally Posted by varmonter
I agree it is deserved. Gary had a few understandable setbacks--but mostly he did this to himself. 2-1/2 years for an order that was promised originally in September 2005??? And then to cancel it for merely asking to fill orders in the order they were taken?? No integrity whatsoever in that transaction, or in selling to CCA when he could have been shipping to existing customers.
January 14th, 2008 05:09 PM
As to why I didn't cancel my order within the first 2 years:
The idea of contacting the BBB never even occurred to me. Maybe because the only posts I saw concerning Gary were positive, or because the order was internet/interstate or the (relatively) small money involved (compared to a car, for example).
As to why I didn't cancel my order: first, the only posts I saw spoke positively about him. I saw nothing indicating he was doing this to many others and still taking orders and charging upfront for them. This thread with its honest feedback had not been established.
Second, it was also an issue of sunk capital. I had so much time invested in my order, and Gary kept promising "it's 2 weeks out" "it's 1 week out" "it's ready for the acrylic dip this weekend" and I wanted to believe that I could get my order faster through him than by getting in the back of another holstermaker’s line.
In reality I was in the very back of Gary's line since my order was first, but I just couldn't bring myself to admit it. I also against hope that if I were polite, he would attend to my order. I NEVER contacted him by phone and only sent 4-6 emails per year (to save HIS time for holstermaking), and all of my emails were respectful and polite. The most up-front email I ever sent him I posted here just to be completely honest to all of you about my situation--but I really don't consider that email to be out of line--just a request to fill orders in the order in which they were taken.
Maybe most importantly, he promised me $200 worth of belts for mistreating me and trying to "buy" my silence. In the end, that amounted to another empty promise, since he canceled my order and thus never made good on that promise. But that definitely contributed to my willingness to wait nearly 2-1/2 years. In October (2007), when Gary was not longer responding to emails, DC helped me get one through to him. Gary promised to have my order finished by November 1, 2007. He never made good on that promise, either. Then in late December I sent him the email I posted here and he canceled my order.
Gary said he was over 600 orders down. Guestimating that an average order might be around $250 (mine was well over $300), that's roughly $150,000. That's a mortgage(!), and we know he recently moved from FL to TN. By his own admission he was spending his time unwisely--many hours spent moderating here, trying to start up Wilderness Belts, sell flashlights, and begin a training-camp businesses, not to mention that he kept taking orders all the time--taking more money from people. To me, that suggests the primary issue may have been financial, not time for making holsters. $150,000 is a lot of money, and a heck-of-an interest-free loan. THEN, as he makes "extra" holsters, he sells them to Coal Creek Armory for money instead of using them to fill previously paid for orders. He's taking twice the money on a single holster instead of just filling the original order. Unlike Eric, whom I have a lot of respect for, Gary never came clean and admitted what was up, or why the first 18 months of customers got shafted.
January 14th, 2008 05:15 PM
It was your post, Steve, that helped me connect more dots. I don't think this was just about time for holstermaking, although that's where it eventually ended up. By charging cards for 2 years and building up a 600+ order backlog, Gary was accumulating a huge interest-free loan from hundreds of customers. He kept producing a minimum of holsters to keep the loan floating, but there's no questions he had tens of thousands of dollars, was taking MORE orders, getting further behind, and playing fast and loose with the truth. I'm grateful this thread is helping us fill holes in our information gaps. So many things were just not making sense before we could get at the truth. Now they do.
Originally Posted by steven gruber
January 15th, 2008 01:44 PM
January 15th, 2008 02:08 PM
We are and thank you for that. This thread has brought a problem with some company's not delivering on their product, and may help some members avoid the same thing.
Concealed Carry Holsters & Carry Options There are some really good concealed carry holster designs, as well as some very bad ones
on the market today. Whether you are in the market for a new holster or just discovered another perfect carry option, let us know about it here.
It has helped members to realize who TO DO BUSINESS WITH and who to avoid.
I truly believe this thread has helped more of your members than hurt.
It is a forum for sharing ideas, possible solutions, personal knowledge, and opinions.
Thru this forum I as I'm sure many others have learned a ton of knowledge from you and all of it's great members on company's, products , classes and people in a close community.
I will reread the rules so i don't talk about options to help.
Were not making this up whats the harm in telling the truth (emails to prove it) if it saves someone this much grief. edit as you wish
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
January 15th, 2008 02:37 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't quite know to say all that as you put it for the explanation so as I said, for a lack of a better term or better yet, the actual explanation of what being "muzzled" was or was meant to be. That was definitely not meant as a bad thing, just was the reality of it and understandably.
Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!
I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!
January 15th, 2008 02:59 PM
For the record i did contact a member of the admin team and explain that i personally found this thread unfair unless and untill there is a similar " Good job " thread for our leathersmiths . It has been explained to me and i agree that there a lot of good job threads out there . However i am still concerned that a person can hit this thread and read only complaints all in one handy place without a thread that is good job to offset it . I just bought a holster off a custom maker here, and had the misfortune to get behind a 100+ holster order , it honestly made the posted wait time on his site a joke . However he did tell me had i ordered one week ahead of when i did he would have made the wait time , however the timeline was now " ill try and get it to you before the " holidays " . and he did by using next day air ( kudos K&D ) at a shipping cost that i am sure cut into his profit . My point ( if i have one ) i guess is that if everyone could and would make holsters we would have no complaints . Complaints are sometimes justified , sometimes not , we all have met " that ol boy that nothing suits " . I dont want to single out any custom leather smith , however i will say that the most honorable man in the world occationaly gets slapped upside the head with things out of his control . Just how he handles this will seperate the craftsmen from the shysters with skills .
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
January 15th, 2008 03:18 PM
I tend to agree with the Redneck and I'll add that I have had honest dealings and communiation with Milt Sparks, Lou Alessi, John Ralston (5shot) and Alex Nossar. Delivery times were almost to the day and the product(s) were above my expectations. As far as the flake being mentioned he is pretty close to if not committing fraud. Forget the BBB, your money is being stolen if it were me I'd be calling the TBI (Tenn Bureau of Inv) and seeing what they had to say!
January 15th, 2008 04:24 PM
I guess I'm not understanding who you are agreeing with or otherwise. I haven't seen anyone say anyone was making anything up; certainly not the staff of this forum, though the "your members" certainly sounds like you are addressing the staff. I'm confused...
Originally Posted by cdwolf
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
January 15th, 2008 05:04 PM
I want to thank the admin and mods of this forum for this thread. I have been an active member of this site for a few months. I never really paid attention to the holster thread until recently. I am in the process of looking for a holster when I came across this thread.
Everyone who uses a forum knows that a forum is a place where people come to vent their frustrations and find answers and suggestions to problems. If i go to XYZ retail store down the block, make my purchase and everything is fine, I am not going to go online and post a thread saying all went well. If i go to XYZ retail store and have nothing but trouble, I may go online and post a warning to others about my situation and take suggestions on how to rectify the problem. When I use a forum, I like to think for every problem posted, there are probably 10 people who happily recieved their items and never posted a nice comment. That being said, the sheer number of complaints on here should serve as a warning to people to beware of certain manufacturers. The manufacturers named in the thread have every right to appeal using the same thread as the people complaining. The primary manufacturer that is mentioned here knows that this forum exists, knows people are complaining and chooses not to answer. I highly doubt that any moderators are deleting his responses. As far as I know this is a thread open to both consumers and manufacturers.
Looking back, I see I am the one who first suggested the Better Business Bureau. I just want to clarify that I have no dog in this fight. I am not involved in the leather business, gun business, holster business in any way whatsoever. I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, I am not trying to ruin anyones business. I am simply a third party suggesting a possible route for consumers to take. I posted the BBB route because when i looked up a particular holstermaker on the BBB website, I saw that a complaint was made to the BBB in June 2007 and was already rectified. In my opinion thats a pretty quick resolution compared to how long people on this thread have waited.
I tend to agree with torrejon. Judging by the number of complaints posted here, and by the amount of money involved, this no longer seems like a business behind in a deadline. This seems like fraud or theft. The number of complaints is easily in the tens of thousands of dollars range, if not more. Like I said i look at posts about problems as 1 problem post to every 10 good outcomes not posted. However we need to remember, while not everyone who received a satisfactory outcome posted, not everyone who's order is still in limbo posted either.
We all know the person who is never happy. Sometimes no matter what, a person is never satisfied with a product, especially a custom product. I don't see that in this the thread. I don't see people complaining about the quality of their holsters. I don't see people complaining their holsters were too expensive. The title of this thread says "Where's my holster". The people in this thread aren't people who are never happy. They are people who were never given the oppurtunity to decide whether they are happy or not with their items. They are people who have no choice but to be unhappy because their hard-earned money was taken and they received nothing in return.
Personally I am glad this thread is here. Like i said i am looking for a holster, which is why i saw this thread and it has helped me steer clear of adding my name to the list of the people already posting their troubles here. This thread may be unfair, may be biased, but it is an open thread and I am sure that response posts by those mentioned in this thread would be more than welcomed by the moderators of this site. The only reason this thread seems unfair is that the manufacturers here have CHOSEN NOT to represent their side of the story and therefore we see only one side. I see many good threads with pictures posted in the holster section of the site and have been looking through it trying to decide where to get my next holster.
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
January 15th, 2008 05:08 PM
To get things back on topic:
Has anyone heard anything at all from Mark Garrity in the past month or two ? I have not seen any new holsters posted, and I have emailed him - his preferred method of communication.
I've heard nothing, and read nothing. Getting a bit concerned.
January 15th, 2008 05:22 PM
I also have a outstanding order from Mark and tried to contact him a couple of times with no luck. I ordered a holster, belt and mag holster in Jan 07. I'm still hoping it will show up soon....
January 15th, 2008 05:32 PM
I also have attempted, unsuccesfully, to reach Mark over the last month. He appears to have cut off all communication with his customers, for which he has one less to deal with now. Fortunately, he never took payment upfront for my order. Good luck!
Originally Posted by Anaconda44
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud
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