Isn't this style of holster illegal?

This is a discussion on Isn't this style of holster illegal? within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; https://www.pagerpal.com/wallet.asp I think it is on the feds big bad no no list, as it is able to be fired while holstered. Am I wrong?...

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Thread: Isn't this style of holster illegal?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Isn't this style of holster illegal?

    https://www.pagerpal.com/wallet.asp

    I think it is on the feds big bad no no list, as it is able to be fired while holstered.

    Am I wrong?
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Why would you want a holster that doesn't protect the trigger guard? Even if it's not on the feds 'no no list', it's on my personal 'no no list'.

    Also, even though this company claims to be in my neck of the woods, I would not buy anything from their website. It all looks pretty cookie cutter, it's overpriced, and I'm not a big fan of 'one size fits all' holsters.

    Looks like a company to stay away from to me.
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  4. #3
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    Nothing illegal about it in friendly Arizona. I used to have one that held a derringer and looked just like a billfold in your back pocket.
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  5. #4
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    I believe that they argue that it's legal because the slide is clearly visible. The previous banned design truly looked like a wallet; this not as much. Note that the ban by the BATF at a federal level - not state level regulations.

    They decided that it's an "Any Other Weapon" which means you have to register and pay a fee. Because of that holster makers stopped making it - presumably too much paperwork. I've seen AOW registered ones on Gunbroker but it hardly seems worth it.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array the_fallguy's Avatar
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    dnowell pretty much has it. The company that manufactures that model has a letter from the BATFE stating that because the slide is easily identifiable, it is not considered a "destructive device". Any company making a similar holster without submitting a sample is gambling with their future.
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  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Ditto on the "No trigger cover"

    Even if I did pocket carry, I sure would not use that one.

    I was unaware that there was a FED no no list on holsters.
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  8. #7
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnowell View Post
    They decided that it's an "Any Other Weapon" ...
    It's a standard pistol when it's in holster X, but when in holster Y (despite not changing at all) it becomes classified as a completely different type of gun? I don't buy it.
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  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    It's a standard pistol when it's in holster X, but when in holster Y (despite not changing at all) it becomes classified as a completely different type of gun? I don't buy it.
    Odd as it may seem, this is entirely accurate.

    27 CFR 479.11 defines handguns as having a grip extending below the gun at an angle to the bore. Placing it in a holster that conceals this identifiable grip and that the gun can be fired while holstered creates an AOW.

    See Jon Gutmacher, Florida Firearms, pp 115-117.

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  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    It's a standard pistol when it's in holster X, but when in holster Y (despite not changing at all) it becomes classified as a completely different type of gun? I don't buy it.
    Well, it's the ATF, so go figure. Their logic runs something like this. They figure since (in the other case, not this one) it generally has the appearance of a wallet (even when "drawn") and can fire in that configuration (from appearances, a wallet that shoots), it is classified as an "any other weapon" (a category of firearms reserved for various oddities from briefcases that shoot, guns that look like pens or other objects, or even more mundane things such as factory made super short shotguns).

    Research "any other weapon" for sale, you'll come up with some interesting items.

    ETA: I like Matt's legal definition above better than my own explanation (more accurate). It wasn't there when I started my response.
    Regards, T Bone.


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  11. #10
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    27 CFR 479.11 defines handguns as having a grip extending below the gun at an angle to the bore. Placing it in a holster that conceals this identifiable grip and that the gun can be fired while holstered creates an AOW.
    So, simply because one cannot see the grip, it's deemed to have altered states?

    Reality is, holster-less carry means a pocket-carried gun can be fired while pocketed ... yet that's patently not illegal. Unsafe perhaps. Yet, put a bit of leather around it which only alters its ability to "flop" in the pocket, then it becomes an AOW?

    Brings new meaning to the possibilities, doesn't it? We joke about "evil black" rifles, but such lunacy might not be too far from occurring.

    Sounds like a vitamin D deficiency, to me.
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  12. #11
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    Reality is, holster-less carry means a pocket-carried gun can be fired while pocketed ... yet that's patently not illegal. Unsafe perhaps. Yet, put a bit of leather around it which only alters its ability to "flop" in the pocket, then it becomes an AOW?
    Are you not familiar with standard ATF policy?
    Dont worry, they arent either...they usually make it up as they go.

    BTW, an AOW weapon permit is usually only $5...if was built at the factory as such. Meaning that a short barreld shotgun that was never anything else is 5 bucks for the paperwork. Same with pen guns.

    If you want to cut the barrel on your shotgun to make it less than 18", the fee is the standard $200 fee for the paperwork to make it legal. Makes alot of sense dosent it?
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  13. #12
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Are you not familiar with standard ATF policy?
    Oh, sure. I'm facetious and cynical in the extreme, when it comes to bureaucratic intelligence. Contradiction in terms, and all that.

    Interesting, isn't it? It must be a natural law. With reins of power, stupidity reigns. J.E.E. Dalberg-Acton had it right, regarding absolute power. JPFO isn't far off the mark, either.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  14. #13
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    Here's some info:
    DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
    Washington, DC 20226

    E:CE:F:TE:RLB
    3311

    MAR 13 1996

    [Name]
    [Address]

    Dear :

    This is in response to your letter of recent date to the Bureau of
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). In your letter, you request
    information regarding the legality of several wallet type holsters
    which you submitted of our examination.

    As defined in 26 U.S.C. section 5845(e) of the National Firearms
    Act (NFA), the term "any other weapon" includes certain weapons
    capable of being concealed on the person. It is unlawful to make,
    possess or transfer such weapons which are not registered in
    accordance with NFA controls. Further, a maker of such firearms
    who has not paid the appropriate special (occupational) tax is
    liable for $200 making tax for each weapon produced and $5 for each
    weapon transferred.

    ATF has previously determined that firearms installed in various
    types of wallets, briefcases, canes, etc. may be NFA firearms as
    defined. The submitted samples are rectangular leather cases,
    which measure approximately 5 1/2 inches in length and 2 3/4 inches
    in height. They are designed to hold an American Derringer firearm
    (Model DA 38) in a fixed position with openings in the leather so
    that the derringer can be operated and fired while it is in the
    case. When the derringer is installed in the case, the weapon has
    the exterior appearance to other "wallet guns" which have
    previously been determined to be NFA firearms.

    - 2 -

    ATF has previously determined that an American Derringer, Model DA
    38, in and of itself, is a firearm subject to the provisions of the
    GCA and is not a firearm subject to the NFA controls. The leather
    wallet by itself is not subject to control as a firearm. However,
    we have also determined that any person who might possess such a
    derringer in combination with the wallet holster would be in
    possession of a firearm subject to the purview of the NFA.

    Any person who possess the combination would be in possession of a
    firearm as defined in 26 U.S.C. section 5845(a)(5) of the NFA.
    Such firearm is subject to the tax imposed under section 5821, and
    the making provisions of section 5822 of the act.

    Should the wallet holsters, as provided, be sold or transferred
    separately from the derringers, we strongly recommend that you
    advise customers regarding the status of these items.

    If you would like to submit a redesigned or modified holster that
    you believe would not be subject to the NFA when held in
    combination with an American Derringer firearm, we will be happy to
    examine it and provide you with the results. We would suggest that
    the redesigned sample no longer resemble a wallet and the
    modification should include cutting the top rear of the wallet,
    thereby exposing the entire back strap and trigger guard area of
    the inserted derringer. The cuts should follow the exact contour
    of the frame of the pistol and not overlap to risk a disguised
    appearance.

    The samples which you submitted for our examination are being
    returned to you under separate cover.

    - 3 -


    We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If you
    have further questions concerning this matter, please contact us.


    Sincerely yours,

    [signed]
    Edward M. Owen, Jr.
    Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
    Wallet Holsters & ATF Regulations
    by: mingtoismom( 1068Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) Top 5000 Reviewer
    71 out of 78 people found this guide helpful.
    Guide viewed: 5585 times Tags: ATF | Holsters | Wallet | Gun | Pistol

    The Bureau Of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms (ATF) has decided that the Wallet Holsters which allow the gun to be fired while it is still in the holster, are now considered "Any Other Weapon" (AOW) The description of AOW is a device that is designed to not look like a firearm and yet fires a bullet. So the concept is that because it looks like a wallet and mugger may percieve it as a wallet as you are shooting him, the ATF thinks they should demand a tax on it. The tip up Berettas, the Seecamp, several other pistols, have holsters specifically designed for them.

    Now if you obtain one, you have to take it to a Class II manufacturer who fills out the appropriate paperwork and registers the weapon/holster combination as an AOW. The next step is to get the signature of a local law enforcement officer (Chief of Police or Sheriff), then get fingerprinted and send the whole thing off to ATF, along with (2) photographs of yourself, and $ 5.00 to cover the tax that is due.

    In a few months, they will send you a tax stamp that says you can own it. Now you go back to the Class II guy and pick it up. If you plan on carrying it on your person, make sure you have a copy of this documentation with you at all times. Each state has specific laws governing the ownership of these devices so you better check first to make sure you can legally own it before you plunk down your hard earned dollars.

    The paperwork is larger and harder to conceal than the gun! If you cannot find a Class II manufacturer in your area, the only alternative is to "make your own" AOW. This will cost you a whopping $ 200.00 to obtain the tax stamp. You cannot take possession of the gun and holster combination until you have been approved and have your stamp.

    If you really want one of these holsters, do your homework and check it out for yourselves. A Federal Criminal Charge is something most people can do without!!!!!!

    Guide ID: 10000000001714210Guide created: 09/02/06 (updated 05/17/08)
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  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Are you not familiar with standard ATF policy?
    Dont worry, they arent either...they usually make it up as they go.

    BTW, an AOW weapon permit is usually only $5...if was built at the factory as such. Meaning that a short barreld shotgun that was never anything else is 5 bucks for the paperwork. Same with pen guns.

    If you want to cut the barrel on your shotgun to make it less than 18", the fee is the standard $200 fee for the paperwork to make it legal. Makes alot of sense dosent it?
    Not to be totally out done by the ATF, Michigan lawmakers have left us an interesting state of affairs. SBS and SBR are illegal. But no laws against AOW's (I think they forgot ).

    And As long as it's fully automatic (legal here due to a reversal of an old Attorney General's "opinion"), you can have a rifle barrel under 16". Only if it's full auto though!

    Back on topic, it seems the holster pictured is NOT an AOW, as it doesn't disguise the gun enough when drawn. Still don't like the unprotected trigger though.
    Regards, T Bone.


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  16. #15
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    What am I missing in this? ATF seems to be saying that the controlling criterion is whether or not the barrel/slide/ grip, are covered.

    Duh, Do they also claim that carry in a fanny pack turns your gun into an AOW?

    And dumb as pocket carry without a holster is, does that (by their thinking) turn the gun into an AOW?

    Seems like some major inconsistency in thinking here. But then, thats what
    regulatory agencies do when they engage in rule making.

    It never ceases to amaze me the way paper pushers get away with putting this garbage into regulations; and that the Critters on the Hill never seem to be able to call them on it.

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