I don't get this argument anymore

This is a discussion on I don't get this argument anymore within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yes, but try taking the pistol out of the holster without physically depressing that mechanical device and the firearm cannot be used in exactly the ...

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Thread: I don't get this argument anymore

  1. #16
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    Yes, but try taking the pistol out of the holster without physically depressing that mechanical device and the firearm cannot be used in exactly the same way that a 1911 cannot be used without first thumbing off the thumb safety.

    Just imagine for a minute that there was a mechanical locking device actually ON the Glock itself that served no other purpose than that of locking the firearm into the holster.
    No matter if you switch the location of that locking device one inch over onto the holster.
    The physical action required would be identical and if not performed the firearm cannot come into play.

    There is no difference except that it is not on the Glock and it IS on the holster.

    Exactly the same way that "ingrained muscle memory" through "reps" is required to "remember" to depress the SERPA button - is exactly the same muscle memory that is completely ingrained when an experienced shooter thumbs off the 1911 safety as part of bringing that firearm into play.

    Once the thumb safety on a 1911 has been ingrained to the OFF SAFE position it's exactly the same as if it is not there at all.

    In other words there is no difference between a presented 1911 with the thumb safety off and a GLOCK without one.

    The only difference being that the 1911 usually has a better trigger.

    The positive exception being that it can be easily be thumbed back on and off as the scenario dictates which I consider to be a slight advantage.

    It's an interesting discussion and one that I've not read presented exactly this way before so I'm enjoying the talking about it whatever the final determination.

    So....your argument is that if a defensive shooter is not willing to practice their draw from holster and presentation sequence enough to be accomplished enough with their firearm then the Glock is a better handgun for them to carry?
    So the Glock is a better gun suited for amateurs?
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array NY27's Avatar
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    QK, we must then agree to disagree. However small the difference is, the thumb safety is a more exaggerated movement than letting your index finger "touch" the release on a Serpa.

    1911 users like to flick their safeties on and off as necessary and Glock users like releasing the trigger and having all three safeties back in place.

    It all comes down to how you are trained and what you are used too. I very often wanted to get a 1911, but my duty gun is a Glock. I don't want to have two different systems for duty and off-duty. Maybe when I retire I can get one.
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  4. #18
    kpw
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    Either adds another action to the draw and fire sequence even if it's not quite the same thing. The last course I was at, there was a large number of students using them. The largest amount of problems were about evenly split between missing the safeties or missing the release on the Serpas. Just about everyone that was equipped with either or both did so at least once, some more often. The problems multiplied when stress was induced. I know it's a training issue but it wasn't just newbies doing it.

  5. #19
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    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  6. #20
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    Actually we can pretty much agree to agree with nearly all of what you have said.

    Now Blackhawk makes a NON Serpa holster with adjustable tension that requires no action at all except for drawing the firearm from the holster.

    Now that argument would hold water but, just my personal opinion that a mechanical safety is a mechanical safety and my only attempted rational point being that exactly as natural as it is for you to use your index finger in order to remove your Glock from a SERPA - that is exactly as easy as it is for me to operate my thumb safety as part of my presentation to the intended target.

    It is simply a matter of different strokes for different folks.
    I don't consider either handgun Glock or 1911 to be inferior or superior only a different format.
    And exactly the same way that I really don't like handguns with DA triggers is probably the same as you don't like an added thumb safety.
    Neither one is problematic at all as long as the shooter is willing to practice with the firearm that they carry. That is my only point.
    It's automatic.
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  7. #21
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    For those of you who like the idea of a retention holster without the bulk of the serpa, try the Bianchi Cary Loc. It fits as tight as a reg pancake type holster but has the retention device. It's funny those that claim it will slow you down and therefore possibly get you killed have obviously never tried one of these holsters. I was at Bass Pro and they had one on display with a Glock in it ( replica) I strapped the holster on and I worked this thing over for about 30 min. I am sure I looked like a idiot but the last thing I want is anything that requires extra thought or movement on my part, which this holster doesn't!! The release lever is placed in such a natural position you automaticaly release it, however to someone else trying to draw your weapon it becomes very akward. All I can say is try it before you bash it. I just wish they made one for my Sig P232 ( church gun)!!!

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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Neither one is problematic at all as long as the shooter is willing to practice with the firearm that they carry. That is my only point.
    It's automatic.
    That, is the key.

    "The Way of the warrior is to master the virtue of his weapons." - Miyamoto Musashi, Go Rin No Sho (1645)
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    You beat me to it... I'll go get the drinks!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    The Blackhawk Serpa with its retention makes for a great open carry holster.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  11. #25
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    At least one defensive school strictly forbids the Serpa holster to be used in their class. Safety issue.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducati View Post
    At least one defensive school strictly forbids the Serpa holster to be used in their class. Safety issue.
    I don't have a Serpa, but have never heard of a "safety issue" with them. Am I just in the dark? I expect that this is more of a personal bias on the part of the trainer.
    Bumper
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  13. #27
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    There was a recall on a few of them at one point.

  14. #28
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    This goes back to that to each their own comment. Everybody has different requirements about the way they CC.

  15. #29
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    I am surprised that no one has inadvertently pulled the trigger when drawing the gun from a serpa holster. Considering the deleterious effects of survival stress, this is, IMO, an ND waiting to happen. There are several training schools that will not allow this type of holster for that very reason.

    As for the thumb safety, even an experienced shooter can 'forget' to disengage the safety when subjected to a mild stress. I've seen it happen over and over in our classes.

    Randy

  16. #30
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    I'm with you Bump... never heard of it being a "safety issue"

    for everyone who says it's a safety issue because you may not be able to get your gun out if needed... there are those who say it is a safety issue that can prevent a "gun grab" by the bad guy...

    My thinking... regardless which way you fly... It's a Training Issue!

    I know... it's a hard concept for me to grasp... but there are a lot of ccw folks who don't like to train. Don't see a need to train and are not gonna train, and that is certainly their prerogative.

    Personally, I have holsters with retention devices and holsters without. Not any faster on the draw on those without than those with.
    -Bark'n
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