Cross draw - Page 2

Cross draw

This is a discussion on Cross draw within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by cmdrdredd Drawing a gun from a IWB or belt holster on the strong side sweeps the ground (safe direction) and your target ...

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Thread: Cross draw

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    Drawing a gun from a IWB or belt holster on the strong side sweeps the ground (safe direction) and your target (you intend to destroy it so non-issue). The only time you could be sweeping your leg is if you're standing in some odd position that is beyond my mental capacity to think of. You can't eactly count the time from the holster to when you clear the holster because if you did and you were really worried about sweeping your leg don't carry. The muzzle will always be pointing to a body part or very close. The whole idea is, you don't want to sweep the gun across people who are not a threat. Cross draw sweeps ANYTHING that could be standing to the side. You want to shoot those people over on your side who are not a threat? If you can point me to a video that shows how this doesn't happen I'd gladly watch it and see for myself how this doesn't happen with proper technique. So far though I'm sticking to my initial thoughts on it.
    In my opinion, you are mistaken, or you have never practiced in a cross draw situation. I'm wondering now whether you even own a cross draw holster or even attempted it. When I cross draw with strong hand, I sweep nothing but the ground before bringing it up to bear on target. Straight up, straight out. I don't swing. A straight forward punch has more behind it than a swing. There is definitely something you're not seeing from my pointy of view. Am I going to make a video of how I do it to prove a point? I think not. Please don't lay down the dreaded 'triple dog dare'.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    In my opinion, you are mistaken, or you have never practiced in a cross draw situation. I'm wondering now whether you even own a cross draw holster or even attempted it. When I cross draw with strong hand, I sweep nothing but the ground before bringing it up to bear on target. Straight up, straight out. I don't swing. A straight forward punch has more behind it than a swing. There is definitely something you're not seeing from my pointy of view. Am I going to make a video of how I do it to prove a point? I think not. Please don't lay down the dreaded 'triple dog dare'.
    I've seen it. I don't want it for the reason I stated. I don't have to own it to say I don't want it...

    Again where is a video? They have vids of standard draw techniques around.

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    I've seen it. I don't want it for the reason I stated. I don't have to own it to say I don't want it...

    Again where is a video? They have vids of standard draw techniques around.
    I'm by no means attempting to convert you in any way. I'm speaking to the open minded individuals on this forum.
    Oh my......I guess we need a video to prove there is a God too, right? Well, I'll work on it. I'm sure you have quite an arsenal of "standard draw' techniques on tape. Then again....that would be standard. We are thinking outside the box here....not unconventional, but obviously outside your thinking. For now, you'll be looking at something like this:
    Learn About Cross Draw Gun Holsters | Expert Village Videos
    Contemplating the Crossdraw

  4. #19
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    I agree with Ram Rod...in a crossdraw situation I can't see myself sweeping anything but the BG in front of me...am I missing something?
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array the_fallguy's Avatar
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    I think a lot of folks are referring to the way some individuals draw a cross draw holster: Standing with their shoulders square to the target, and sweeping horizontally across the room as they bring the weapon to bear. This kind of draw is the reason that most shooting classes will not allow cross draw rigs (because the cross draw student inevitably sweeps the muzzle over anyone standing on their weak side).

    There are some folks who have adapted to the cross draw by keeping the muzzle pointed down until the pistol is oriented in a forward direction, and then lifting the sights to the target. While this is an improvement over the previous method, it still leaves a lot to be desired in a defensive draw stroke; To accomplish this kind of draw, the wrist must be "broken" when the holster clears leather. This is a very weak grip which can easily result in the loss of the firearm if the attacker is close. Lifting a pistol to put it into play is also somewhat dicey if the attacker is close, since the firearm can easily be pinned to the defenders chest or hips, depending on the draw stroke used (I know it's not likely, but I have seen it happen in training so it's something to consider).

    The best cross draw stroke I have seen goes as follows: The weak side is pointed towards the attacker while the strong hand makes a firm grip on the pistol (this orients the muzzle downrange even before the pistol clears leather). The weak arm is bent with the elbow hovering over the pistol, ready to protect the gun from any grab attempts, or to fend off any incoming strikes ( and since the gun is drawn from underneath the weak side arm, the muzzle never sweeps it). The pistol is then drawn and the strong side hand is dragged across the chest to a point of retention (like the one used by Shivworks, Jim Grover, Mike Janich, etc...). The weak elbow is then dropped down and the weak hand covers the center of the chest. At this point, the draw stroke is continued as if it were the normal stroke of the modern technique.

    OK, folks... I know that got a little wordy, but I try to expose as many people as I can to this draw stroke. The other versions I have seen are are either unsafe for the user or bystanders. BTW, using this draw stroke can make cross draw carry even more defensible from grab attempts than strong side carry (with a little bit of training).
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    I'm by no means attempting to convert you in any way. I'm speaking to the open minded individuals on this forum.
    Oh my......I guess we need a video to prove there is a God too, right? Well, I'll work on it. I'm sure you have quite an arsenal of "standard draw' techniques on tape. Then again....that would be standard. We are thinking outside the box here....not unconventional, but obviously outside your thinking. For now, you'll be looking at something like this:
    Learn About Cross Draw Gun Holsters | Expert Village Videos
    Contemplating the Crossdraw
    You miss my point. I've never seen a person draw without sweeping the people around them. I can't locate anything that shows me that this doesn't happen.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array the_fallguy's Avatar
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    I couldn't imagine it either until I saw the method I described previously, but I guess you would have to see it for yourself. Still, rest assured it can be done, though most cross draw users don't take the time to learn it, or they just don't understand there is a need for it.

    I don't personally carry cross draw. I think it is way too difficult to conceal, and I'm not a big fan of reaching across the center of my body in a conflict.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    You miss my point. I've never seen a person draw without sweeping the people around them. I can't locate anything that shows me that this doesn't happen.
    So what? There are a lot of things done by many gun owners that are idiotic (mostly because the majority of the people who carry guns never get any professional training outside of their CCW or departmental requirements).

    I'm not crazy about cross draw (outside of very limited contexts) for some of the same reasons Boom-stick outlined, but that doesn't mean it can't be done safely. It CAN be done without sweeping the people around you as Boom Stick already outlined
    Quote Originally Posted by BOOM-STICK Holsters
    The pistol is then drawn and the strong side hand is dragged across the chest to a point of retention (like the one used by Shivworks, Jim Grover, Mike Janich, etc...). The weak elbow is then dropped down and the weak hand covers the center of the chest. At this point, the draw stroke is continued as if it were the normal stroke of the modern technique.
    Using this method, the muzzle doesn't sweep anything except a semi-circle on the ground in front of you...
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

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  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOOM-STICK Holsters View Post
    I think a lot of folks are referring to the way some individuals draw a cross draw holster: Standing with their shoulders square to the target, and sweeping horizontally across the room as they bring the weapon to bear. This kind of draw is the reason that most shooting classes will not allow cross draw rigs (because the cross draw student inevitably sweeps the muzzle over anyone standing on their weak side).

    There are some folks who have adapted to the cross draw by keeping the muzzle pointed down until the pistol is oriented in a forward direction, and then lifting the sights to the target. While this is an improvement over the previous method, it still leaves a lot to be desired in a defensive draw stroke; To accomplish this kind of draw, the wrist must be "broken" when the holster clears leather. This is a very weak grip which can easily result in the loss of the firearm if the attacker is close. Lifting a pistol to put it into play is also somewhat dicey if the attacker is close, since the firearm can easily be pinned to the defenders chest or hips, depending on the draw stroke used (I know it's not likely, but I have seen it happen in training so it's something to consider).

    The best cross draw stroke I have seen goes as follows: The weak side is pointed towards the attacker while the strong hand makes a firm grip on the pistol (this orients the muzzle downrange even before the pistol clears leather). The weak arm is bent with the elbow hovering over the pistol, ready to protect the gun from any grab attempts, or to fend off any incoming strikes ( and since the gun is drawn from underneath the weak side arm, the muzzle never sweeps it). The pistol is then drawn and the strong side hand is dragged across the chest to a point of retention (like the one used by Shivworks, Jim Grover, Mike Janich, etc...). The weak elbow is then dropped down and the weak hand covers the center of the chest. At this point, the draw stroke is continued as if it were the normal stroke of the modern technique.

    OK, folks... I know that got a little wordy, but I try to expose as many people as I can to this draw stroke. The other versions I have seen are are either unsafe for the user or bystanders. BTW, using this draw stroke can make cross draw carry even more defensible from grab attempts than strong side carry (with a little bit of training).
    Actually, the weak side elbow isn't just bent with the hand hanging there "guarding" the pistol. In CCW situations, the weak hand is sweeping and holding the cover garment prior to the draw. The weak hand is against the body holding the garment. (This is either up on the chest or behind the curve of the body.)

    During the draw the shooter positions himself with the weak side towards the target. The strong hand comes across the body and grasps the weapon. The draw is normal and comes up along the body until the pistol is above the weak hand. At that point the pistol is started into it's presentation towards the target and the weak hand comes up from underneath to support the shooting hand.

    At no point is the muzzle pointing at any body part of the shooter. At no point does the weapon sweep sideways. The draw is up and forward towards the target at all times.

    Of course if you shoot from an isosceles position then this draw/carry style will not work for you.

  10. #25
    Member Array NDN-MAN's Avatar
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    Cross draw

    I found a good article on cross draw.
    Go to GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH and put in (cross draw holster) Click on (GUNWEEK.COM) image.
    Good article and has pictures of proper cross draw.
    Hope this is helpfull.
    It's not the bow or the arrow It's the NDN

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    So what? There are a lot of things done by many gun owners that are idiotic (mostly because the majority of the people who carry guns never get any professional training outside of their CCW or departmental requirements).

    I'm not crazy about cross draw (outside of very limited contexts) for some of the same reasons Boom-stick outlined, but that doesn't mean it can't be done safely. It CAN be done without sweeping the people around you as Boom Stick already outlined
    So what? If you want to recommend a dangerous idea to someone be my guest. Not going to do that personally. If I could see how it was done then I would say "you can learn to do it like this". I've never see someone do it the supposed right way and that's my point. It is my opinion that it is an unsafe and hard to conceal method. The safety issue can be resolved if someone would demonstrate it to me and then I could understand the concepts. Just the same as someone drawing from strong side and presenting the muzzle out their car window without sweeping it across their legs in the seated position.

    Again, I just have to see it. Don't tell me so what like safety doesn't matter and that people do stupid things. I am not going to recommend something that I feel isn't safe. Safety is #1 priority with firearms of any type. That is, until I can see how it is made safe. Get my drift?

    It's not a shot at anyone, but my gut feeling is "don't do it".

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array the_fallguy's Avatar
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    Rob P., you're describing a different draw stroke, but it still sounds better than the sweeping or muzzle down draws.

    I believe weak hand is better utilized left ready to do it's job (read: not just "hanging there") rather than tying it up with the cover garment. The strong side hand will have to clear the garment anyhow if the left hand is engaged (which is fairly likely), so you might as well give it a lot of practice by training that way.

    Another difference in the draw I described is that the gun is drawn across the body underneath the support arm (visualize the support hand's thumb and fingers making contact with the sternum and clavicle, while the elbow is oriented towards the threat). Using the retention position such as that seen in the Shivworks curriculum, the muzzle never covers any part of the gun wielder's body. Only after the pistol has reached the point of retention and the weak hand is decidedly not engaged does the weak arm collapse against the body, and then a "normal" draw stroke is used.

    If the left hand is engaged and a deadly threat is imminent, the stance won't matter. However, if the threat is at such a distance that the pistol can be safely pressed out, the shooter will tend to assume their most comfortable position (be it modified weaver, modern isosceles, etc.) without really thinking about it.

    In the end, differing training methodologies are largely semantics. You and those whom you protect may live or die based on your decisions, and how you train. Given this criteria, I will never fault anyone who disagrees with my methodologies or opinions.
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array mr surveyor's Avatar
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    so...if crossdraw is so dangerous then shoulder holsters should be outright banned....


    surv

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    So what? If you want to recommend a dangerous idea to someone be my guest. Not going to do that personally. If I could see how it was done then I would say "you can learn to do it like this". I've never see someone do it the supposed right way and that's my point. It is my opinion that it is an unsafe and hard to conceal method. The safety issue can be resolved if someone would demonstrate it to me and then I could understand the concepts. Just the same as someone drawing from strong side and presenting the muzzle out their car window without sweeping it across their legs in the seated position.

    Again, I just have to see it. Don't tell me so what like safety doesn't matter and that people do stupid things. I am not going to recommend something that I feel isn't safe. Safety is #1 priority with firearms of any type. That is, until I can see how it is made safe. Get my drift?

    It's not a shot at anyone, but my gut feeling is "don't do it".
    Your opinion that it's unsafe and unworkable is not realistic. Are there people who do it wrong?...I have no doubt. Are there ways to do it right? Yes, and one of those ways has been explained.
    It sounds like you expect to be spoon-fed instead of actually figuring it out for yourself.
    Do you lack the visualization skills necessary to imagine what is going on? Are you unable to follow the step-by-step instructions that have already been posted? If you took your pistol (unloaded of course) and actually experimented, I would imagine that in just a few minutes, you could figure out how to present the pistol w/o sweeping everything around you.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  15. #30
    jfl
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr surveyor View Post
    so...if crossdraw is so dangerous then shoulder holsters should be outright banned....
    surv
    I agree ... especially the "horizontal" type; everytime you move, you sweep a large area.
    At first, I felt uncomfortable wearing one, to the point I was carrying in C-3.
    Then I realized it was a BAD idea to have two procedures when drawing; one where you have to rack the slide and one where you don't... I am a strong believer in consistency.

    In another thread I said how uncomfortable I was at the Naples airport cafeteria when a trooper (Aviation Unit) sat with his back towards me; he was open carrying his Beretta in a shoulder holster, over his jumpsuit and the muzzle was looking directly at me
    After a few minutes I changed tables ...

    I am EXTREMELY careful when I teach a student to be adamant about not sweeping, and at the range I am extremely careful, but I realize that when the SHTF it's not going to be like at the range; you might have to draw from an awkward position and your "target" will be moving, so I don't worry too much about sweeping in that situation.

    I might have to draw with the weak hand, which easier with a cross-draw or draw the BUG (when I carry one - not often).
    If a BG has grabbed meand I am trying to shoot his leg or whatever I can see of him, sweeping will be the last of my worries.

    Cross-draw might be your only choice if you have arthritis in the wrist or the shoulder.
    As usual TIMTOWTDI (It's a Perl thing - there is more than one way to do it)

    My $.02
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

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