Question for EMT's or Doctors/Nurses - Page 2

Question for EMT's or Doctors/Nurses

This is a discussion on Question for EMT's or Doctors/Nurses within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by firefighter4884 I'm not sure that in an impact with speeds much above 20 mph, any part of your body is going to ...

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Thread: Question for EMT's or Doctors/Nurses

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation What You Wear Isn't Always About Fashion!

    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter4884
    I'm not sure that in an impact with speeds much above 20 mph, any part of your body is going to do well at taking the impact of the road, let alone with the gun holstered on your side.

    Personally, I'd recommend having it mounted somewhere to the bike, or in the saddle bags. I understand that it's not the most attactive option, and most of us are not in favor of off body carry, but it's what's going to hurt the least if you do get in a wreck.

    On the other hand, if you're going fast enough, the impact with the ground is going to do all the damage imaginable. I don't think having the gun will matter at that point (it's not going to hurt you any worse the the black top hitting you at 30 or 40 or 80 mph).

    Just my humble opinion, gathered from picking up a few too many bikers who've dropped their bikes. A doctor might be able to describe it better to you, or pick out a particular spot.

    --Jim

    **Just an EMT who has to go to work in the snow all night tonight. :)
    I'll go along with those observations speaking as one who has ridden motorcycles cross country for quite a few years (in my wild youth and hopefully in my sedentary future). I would be inclines to go with shoulder carry or keeping the piece in a saddle bag or perhaps in a cubby hole on a cruising bike like a GoldWing.

    But aside from head trauma getting hurt on a motorcycle is often a function of what you wear. There is a serious reason that bikers wear leather and it's not societal. When you dump a bike at speed and you wear anything BUT leather, everyplace the asphalt comes into contact with your body the pavement shreds the cloth and the result is what is fondly referred to as Road Rash. IOW the flesh takes on all the characteristics of raw hamburger. But when wearing leather, the tendency is to slide along the road and the biggest risk therefore is the impact trauma and bumps along the way.

    One of the hottest new safety items that is currently replacing leather is called Road Armor. This can range from Kevlar materials to a special jacket made of stretchable spandex and attached to a CO2 cartridge which is then attached to the bike by means of a special ripcord. If the bike dumps, the ripcord is pulled and the suit becomes an instant rendition of the Michellin Tire Man. There is no harm to the rider unless he gets struck by another vehicle. And of course...you'd only forget to disengage the rip cord ONCE! I would think that if one was carrying a firearm inside such protection there would be the same cushioning effect for the weapon as the body.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    On a rather grim note- I have not seen a motorcycle fatality that did not involve crushing head injury or castration. Or both. I wouldn't put anything in the lower abdominal area that could snag/impale you.

    Honestly, the best suggestion I have would be a J-frame, Seecamp, Am-Derringer type pistol, carried in a pocket.

  3. #18
    Member Array St Michael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72
    On a rather grim note- I have not seen a motorcycle fatality that did not involve crushing head injury or castration. Or both. I wouldn't put anything in the lower abdominal area that could snag/impale you.
    Soooo...you're saying Smart Carry definitely ain't so smart in this scenario?

    ;-)

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
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    imho. I think a shoulder holster is a great bet. I would try to stay away from the 3 or 9 oclock, as if you lay the bike down a pistol on the hip would cause alot of damage. In an actual wreck, well anyplace isn't good, because everything is going to hurt. I would side with the other doc, a fanny pack would be cushion and displace the gun over more space.
    I ride snowmobile often and don't carry because of the safety issue. I am probably having a much bumpier ride, but the danger is there.
    For someone riding a bike for transportation, I would vote for a shoulder rig, like a padded fabric one.
    ----DOC-----

    --people ask why I carry, and I show them this picture. I think it says it all.--

    NRA Certified Instructor--many disciplines

  5. #20
    New Member Array kobun kibun's Avatar
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    I ride a lot, mostly sportbikes.

    I will usually carry my C&C Kahr P40 in an IWB sharkskin Bullman Ayoob holster when off of my bike, and when riding, I have fabricated a custom lockable and hidden gun compartment in the fairings of my bikes b/t the instrument pannel and right side bodywork. I have a second compartment on the left for other items. When the compartment is unlocked I have very quick access to my weapon, and I can lock up my roscoe if I have to go into a NPE.

    One of my buddies wears full one-piece leathers exclusively when riding, and he carries his Springfield .45 GAP in a Rosen shoulder holster.
    Being proactive is the best way to avoid having to be defensive.

    Follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they sought.

    "Stategy is the craft of the warrior."-- Miyamoto Musashi

    Ars sine scientia nihil est.

  6. #21
    Member Array Kahrma's Avatar
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    Line it on the body side with two layers of heavy leather, or semi-flexible plastic. A piece of firm Kydex could be used, or several layers of white plastic milk carton contact cemented together.
    Most motorcycle gear/clothing companies sell replacement armor for their jackets, usually consisiting of an energy absorbing foam. The piece that covers the spine, hip or shoulders should be a relatively flat piece - this might be perfect for this application. Just cut it to fit. Might not be a bad idea to buy a piece of this and cut it to fit your pocket (between body and gun) if using pocket carry.

    On a rather grim note- I have not seen a motorcycle fatality that did not involve crushing head injury or castration. Or both. I wouldn't put anything in the lower abdominal area that could snag/impale you.
    Agreed. If a head injury doesn't get you, multiple trauma is usually the next culprit. Injury or even castration sometimes comes during the groin's trip up the "gas tank" (some are merely airboxes these days) and over the instruments and bars. Low slung sportbike windshields are merciless here. Definitely wouldn't want to try IWB at 10-2. Smartcarry claims their product acts as a groin protector, but I don't think I'd want to try it! I have sat on a bike with one on - it's not very comfortable in a forward-leaning position.

    But aside from head trauma getting hurt on a motorcycle is often a function of what you wear....When you dump a bike at speed and you wear anything BUT leather, everyplace the asphalt comes into contact with your body the pavement shreds the cloth and the result is what is fondly referred to as Road Rash.
    Leather is generally regarded as the best at resisting abrasion, although pretty much any riding-specific gear is built to take a slide better than street clothing. Your other mechanism of injury is impact - with parts of your bike, with whatever you hit, sliding into a curb, a tree, guard rails (often amputate arms/legs), barb wire fences, sign posts, culverts, drain pipes, etc. Hence the need for back protectors and all the padding/armor that makes us look like Power Rangers.

    The more I think about it, seems like the best place for concealed carry on a bike would be a cargo pocket over the thigh (good muscle mass surrounding strong bone underneath) or a shoulder rig under the jacket (not likely to take a major hit here - if you do you're screwed anyway).

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    When I started as an EMT, I ran in a rural area on highway and interstate calls. It is hard to imagine a good place on the body to carry a revolver or pistol while on a motorcycle, where the firearm would not become a mechanism of injury. I can only recall one incident where we found a concealed weapon on the body. I can remember several where PD recovered a weapon down the road, and there was an injury specific to where the weapon had been carried. I think if I were going to carry on a motorcycle, I would choose a vertical shoulder rig.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    I ride a cruiser. To me full leathers is a good old police jacket and chaps. With my jacket (or vest in the summer) left open the top 6" I can easily acccess my 340PD that I now carry in a Desantis Shoulder Holster (thanks to a good buy off eBay). Its the reason I bought the holster is for riding.

    For me to all the folks who gave good info, thanks. Its not even my post and I learned some good stuff.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  9. #24
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    tough one

    Impact and abrasion. I think the good docs commented about dispersing energy on an impact w/ a fanny pack or such. If that is your route, you may want to check out the CE Approved impact absorbing armor available at www.newenough.com

    I have these pads for all my scooter jackets. Pretty thin and, I guess, could be padded behind a fanny pack or such without much problem.

    I've usually shied away from leather vests, but I picked up a concealment vest fromCoronado Leathers. I've been kicking an idea around of affixing a kydex holster, think adhesing into the concealment pocket, (like a vertical shoulder rig) while on the scoot. I may try to do that, not sure. If I do, do I wear my leather padded jacket over top of my vest, under my vest, or just say to heck w/ it and ride barearms. Yikes!! Being an MSF instructor, it would not look good for me to ride w/ out long sleeves of some sort.

    Some guys use off the body like tank bags, etc. One guy conceals his in a compartment in front of his hard saddle bag. The problem I see here is transition from off the body to on the body.

    Regardless of the proposed solution, this is a tough one and there are compromises and risks involved in whatever method is employed.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array SARR001's Avatar
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    In my one piece leathers on my sportbike I carry my P12 or P99 in a vertical shoulder holster under the leathers. If on my cruiser, I still wear plenty of protection, so it is on my strong side kidney Beltster under my jacket.
    Never considered injuring myself with my weapon in a crash. Not going to change how I carry.
    "Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahrma
    The more I think about it, seems like the best place for concealed carry on a bike would be a cargo pocket over the thigh (good muscle mass surrounding strong bone underneath) or a shoulder rig under the jacket (not likely to take a major hit here - if you do you're screwed anyway).
    You tripped a switch:
    http://www.szaboinc.com/index1.html
    Scroll about 1/2 way down, and check out the Side-o-Thigh Modular bag. Interesting idea...

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Giong down on a bike is so situationally dependant, that it's hard to say what works and what doesn't. Name a situation and I've probably seen it, but there are hundreds more that I haven't seen yet. I'd *guess* that your best bet would be shoulder harness or something that was mentioned earlier, a thigh type harness. Neither of which would probably be very comfortable on a cycle. I don't ride so I'm only guessing here. The touring type bikes would give you more of-body carry options obviously. The sport bikes would be a little tougher in that sense but I'm sure with the right mindset that you could come up with something.

    When you go down, (hopefully you never will but the odds are totally against you considering the stupidity of a good portion of people on the road today), it's really not going to matter where that firearm is, you'll probably get it torn off or shoved somewhere you don't want it shoved! I don't like the idea anymore than you do, but off-body carry in consideration of less body trauma do to an accident would be the best compromise.
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

  13. #28
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    Well - this is highly relevent, tho no way to tell what injuries the guy suffered. It proves tho how us bikers have to be ultra vigilant and expect anything - anything at all!

    It was only last friday!!!!

    http://kaktuz.net/msd/massdestrActio...headcamera.wmv
    Chris - P95
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  14. #29
    Member Array SSKC's Avatar
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    There have been many informative and thought provoking posts in this thread. I thank all who have contributed.

    I have heard of all kinds of injuries from bike accidents. Up 'till now, I had never considered castration. Perhaps helmets should come with a matching cup!

    Based on input from this thread and some personal head-scratching, my current thoughts for on-body carry would be:

    1. Select as flat a weapon as possible (I'm thinking Kahr).
    2. Position the weapon over a less vulnerable area of the body, such as the abdomen or thigh. I once fell on a wallet that was in the inside pocket of my ski jacket - it felt like I cracked a rib (which I have done), so I'm staying away from shoulder rigs.
    3. Place some type of semi-rigid pad (leather, plastic, Kevlar) between the weapon and the body to distribute impact force.
    4. Ensure that the weapon is sufficiently secure that it is unlikely to move excessively or be easily dislodged.
    5. Don't crash.

    I'm sure there is no perfect solution - I'm just trying to come up with something that is a reasonable balance between risk of injury and risk of being unarmed.

    If anyone has anything they'd like to add, please jump in.

    SSKC

  15. #30
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    Motorcycle Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Well - this is highly relevent, tho no way to tell what injuries the guy suffered. It proves tho how us bikers have to be ultra vigilant and expect anything - anything at all!

    It was only last friday!!!!

    http://kaktuz.net/msd/massdestrActio...headcamera.wmv

    Well, although I'm currently "bikeless" I dream of a new Honda GoldWing in my future. I think I would carry my usual gun for trips (Glock M27 40) strongside IWB in a Blade Tech kydex with the optional body shield. The Kydex is tough as nails and it should prevent the gun itself from goring you with the body shield. I like the idea of putting another layer of kevlar between you and IT to better distribute the impact over a wider area. As a plus, I'd also have my new (upcoming) Kel-Tec Sub-2000 folding carbine in one of the saddlebags of the 'Wing.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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