CCW newb; questions on OWB carry and cant

CCW newb; questions on OWB carry and cant

This is a discussion on CCW newb; questions on OWB carry and cant within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey, all... Glad to have found and joined up here. I'm new to a job which involves concealed carry on and (optionally) off-duty, with a ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: CCW newb; questions on OWB carry and cant

  1. #1
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    476

    CCW newb; questions on OWB carry and cant

    Hey, all...

    Glad to have found and joined up here. I'm new to a job which involves concealed carry on and (optionally) off-duty, with a mid-compact SIG. My choices of holster are limited to an approved list, and they're all OWB or shoulder options. The main issue is that we must carry the holster with which we're qualified...we can't have one for on-duty and another for off-duty. (The OWB/IWB conversion thread just below did catch my eye...I was looking for something like that...)

    Standard issue holster is a Safariland paddle/belt convertible model with vertical draw, which I actually like a lot. My issue with it is that it sticks out a lot from my body, which I find awkward for getting in and out of vehicles, and for printing reasons. I'm thin (29" waist) with larger shoulders (40" jacket...not huge, but in proportion...) and the gun just looks like a big fat lump unless I wear a really sloppy-looking oversized jacket. And then I look like David Byrne, which just won't do.

    I was thinking of trying a pancake holster with the "FBI cant," and wearing it further behind my back, say the 4:30 position. Is this a good option for keeping the printing lower while still allowing a fast draw from underneath a cover garment? I find the cant to be awkward at the 3:00 position, but it seems more natural further to the rear, whereas the vertical ones seem awkward that far back.

    Looking at the Kramer horsehide scabbards, but also perhaps the Don Hume speed scabbard. Any input? I don't want anything with a thumb break or other similar retention that you have to manipulate in order to draw.

    Finally...I was looking to a Milt Sparks 1 1/4" belt in black for wear with a suit and down to casual clothes. I like the pre-curved shape and the simple silver buckle. Sound like a good idea?

    Thanks for the advice,
    AX

    Edit: Or does anyone endorse a shoulder rig with a vertical gun position? I like the idea of keeping more weight off my waist, plus maybe keeping the weapon closer to my body, but the cross-draw and overall complication of the thing scream "no way" to me.


  2. #2
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    16,069
    Personally I like the waist carry. Shoulder rigs have never been comfortable to me. I carry just behind my hip ,with a 15 degree cant 3 slot pancake holster. I find the 3 slot , I can carry while still wearing shorter coats and not expose the gun.

  3. #3
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    Hi Agent - welcome to CC

    I am an OWB devotee and elect always to have a fairly hi-ride pancake, belt slide with generous cant.

    I personally like the cant firstly to aid the draw and secondly to keep butt fwd a bit so less rear protrusion.

    My 226 lives in a K&D Eagle Defender - I'll put on a pic. The cant is maybe 10 and my smaller rig for SP-101 has probably 15 - which suits the revo nicely.

    We have several talented holster makers here - check out Kevin's site anyways to see what he has there http://www.kdholsters.com/ - I certainly recommend this type of OWB and the cant.


    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Eric Larsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    WoodsX Ut
    Posts
    770
    Well great thread and questions....you bring up alot of great points.

    First Paddles dont conceal worth a fart!!!!!!!

    Yes, pancakes do conceal extremely well. When worn at 3.30-4.30, with proper cant, they will keep it close to the body, allow for a natural draw during presentation and be very comfortable even while seated. You wont find a better choice for OWB IMO.

    Remember the farther back you wear the weapon-the more cant you may need. Dont go too high or too low in rd. ht.....and always use a good quality gun belt for OWB carry...even with an alloy framed med sized Sig.

    Hope this helps and shoot well..............
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..........Rush

  5. #5
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    476
    Thanks all for the help. I appreciate the time and advice. I think I'll be getting the Kramer...it's one of the few I'm allowed to use that fits the bill. Wish my choices were a bit broader, but I hear they're quality stuff.

    Opinions on horsehide v. cowhide? Price isn't a big deal, so I was figuring horsehide...but that's just because I was told it was lighter and thinner. Anything else I should know?

    I'm going to get the stiffest belt I can get that will still fit in the belt loops on dress pants (1 1/4", I assume)...I have a LOT of other crap to carry besides the gun when I'm on the job. I might even be wearing braces along with the belt to help bear all the weight. Might be a fashion no-no to wear both, but I'm sure an ASP, gun, mags, OC spray, and radio aren't on Vogue's list of approved accessories...

    -AX

  6. #6
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,424
    Howdy!

    I would agree with a pancake type holster being your best all-around bet for the situation that you described. As far as carry position goes, 3:00 is faster on the draw, but does not conceal well for most folks. About 4:00-4:30 will conceal significantly better and still offer decent draw characteristics.
    For a comparison between cowhide and horsehide, please follow this link to my website. Hopefully it will help. Good luck!

    http://brommelandgunleather.com/materials.htm

  7. #7
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    476
    Great info, Gary. Thanks!

  8. #8
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,572

    Post This Sure Will Help You Also

    Here is a link to the Matt Del Fatti Help Page.
    Let me first say that you'll not go wrong with any of our top holster makers. It basically boils down to...
    "What do you want?...the BEST? or...the BEST?"

    But, this is the Del Fatti Page that I send folks to when they need help with holster rake or cant.

    VERY HELPFUL ~ CLICK HERE TO GO THERE.

    Check Out The Rest Of His Site Also ~ Great Photo Gallery Of Holsters ~ Very Educational ~ Click Here

  9. #9
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    476
    You guys should make a sticky out of all these links and such...keep you from having to answer newbs like me all the time.

  10. #10
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    476
    OK, so I got my holster (forward-cant pancake) and a gunbelt today. Been trying it on and doing some dry-draws with an ASP redgun around the house. Nicely-made gear (Kramer holster in horsehide, Milt Sparks belt).

    #1, the holster conceals like crazy. Not my primary concern, since I'm a LEO in plainclothes, not an undercover guy or anything...I think the belt badge and rest of my gear will kind of give it up anyhow, if you're looking that closely...but still, it doesn't even look like I'll have to have my jackets tailored much differently. Very impressive.

    #2, it sits funny; at rest, it's tightly held to my lowest two ribs. Conceals great, but in order to draw, I need to pull the grip directly away from my body to establish grip and clear my ribcage It feels a bit painful, and worse, slow and awkward on the draw.

    Plus, the belt 'gaps' from my body at the points where the belt enters and exits the slots in the holster...this also seems to allow the belt to pull up as I draw, instead of keeping the holster in place. (Despite the fact that it's passing through two belt loops underneath the holster...) Are these gaps typical of pancake holsters in general, or is it just my scrawny waist that's making it an issue?

    I've got the belt cinched TIGHTLY, but it's still a bit of a problem, complicated by the fact that it's new, very tight leather (plus the plastic redgun has a lot more friction than my duty weapon, but I don't have that at home yet, and won't get to use it in the holster until I'm actually on the firing line next time...bummer...)

    Is this normal? Will things change as it breaks in? Should I be looking to get another type of holster? I did want something tight to my body, but if it's sacrificing this much draw speed, it worries me. (I know, I've only had it for a few hours...)

    MD

  11. #11
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    Agent - give it time!!!

    Mine also are quite tight to lower ribs - which I like, and always feel it there. To draw I think you will have to adapt to a draw which is sorta ''sidebend left/rotate right'' - pull upper body away from gun if you will. Don't try to pull away from your body - that I would agree will feel slow and awkward.

    While the leather is real tight when new, the belt will not sit as well as later, when the ''wings'' - with the slots conform better to the belt thru them.

    Wear rig to max and let it settle in and soften up a bit - I'd all but guarantee that it will become much more to your liking the way it sits. Plus too if OWB pancake is new to you it may take some getting used to.

    I keep posting this pic but it does show how tight my SIG holds in, even as here with a rather old belt. I do not BTW cinch tight to max but find the slight belt droop is totally self limiting. It works great for me.


    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  12. #12
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    AgentX - OK, so I got my holster (forward-cant pancake) and a gunbelt today. Been trying it on and doing some dry-draws with an ASP redgun around the house. Nicely-made gear (Kramer holster in horsehide, Milt Sparks belt).

    #1, the holster conceals like crazy. Not my primary concern, since I'm a LEO in plainclothes, not an undercover guy or anything...I think the belt badge and rest of my gear will kind of give it up anyhow, if you're looking that closely...but still, it doesn't even look like I'll have to have my jackets tailored much differently. Very impressive.

    #2, it sits funny; at rest, it's tightly held to my lowest two ribs. Conceals great, but in order to draw, I need to pull the grip directly away from my body to establish grip and clear my ribcage It feels a bit painful, and worse, slow and awkward on the draw.


    I've experienced the same thing. There is such a thing as too tight. If ultimate concealment is the goal, then the holster has to pull the gun in tight. Some things that can happen if the holster pulls the gun in tighter than needed are, signficantly less comfort, slower draw, and harder draw. Of course not everyone will experience all of that because we are all built a little different. You and I seem to notice the grip in the ribs thing and the awkward way you have to draw. I notice the rib problem esp. seated in my car.

    I conceal my gun with an over-garment. It could be a tee shirt with an unbuttoned overshirt or very light weight home made vest. My wife has made me several cheap "vests" by buying some Good Will shirts and cutting the sleeves completely off and hemming the cut. I try to find shirts with a pocket on each side for glasses, papers, cell phone, whatever. With the over garment, I have found it is not necessary to have the gun pulled in tightly to conceal it. This gives me the option of more comfort, and faster and more reliable draws.

    Agentx - Plus, the belt 'gaps' from my body at the points where the belt enters and exits the slots in the holster...this also seems to allow the belt to pull up as I draw, instead of keeping the holster in place. (Despite the fact that it's passing through two belt loops underneath the holster...) Are these gaps typical of pancake holsters in general, or is it just my scrawny waist that's making it an issue?

    Generally, that's the case, but depends on the holster specifically. Some holsters will mold over time and reduce the gapping and some won't. Your holster is a Kramer horsehide - it won't; it may get a little better as it breaks in, but I doubt it will ever go away - at least that's what I've found with my Kramer horsehide "belt scabbard". From your description, I presume that's what you got.

    I'm a bit late with this, but the Kramer vertical scabbard doesn't gap the belt at all. It does a great job of pulling the gun in without it being too tight, but it still conceals really well - which isn't a big concern for you, but still it's comfortable.

    Agentx -I've got the belt cinched TIGHTLY, but it's still a bit of a problem, complicated by the fact that it's new, very tight leather (plus the plastic redgun has a lot more friction than my duty weapon, but I don't have that at home yet, and won't get to use it in the holster until I'm actually on the firing line next time...bummer...)

    Is this normal? Will things change as it breaks in? Should I be looking to get another type of holster? I did want something tight to my body, but if it's sacrificing this much draw speed, it worries me. (I know, I've only had it for a few hours...)


    A tightly cinched belt can't be comfortable all day. But the holster will break in some, but it's going to take a while. There are things you can do to speed up how the gun fits the holster, but that particular holster is going to be a long time, if ever, molding to you.

    If I may suggest, give Kramer a call, explain the problem, see if they'll let you swap the holster for a vertical scabbard. The vertical scabbard won't gap your belt; it will hold the gun in tight, but not too tight; it's much faster to draw from because you won't have to "...pull the grip directly away from my body to establish grip and clear my ribcage..." and it will help a wee bit that it's vertical.

    Just for clarity, the vertical scabbard is NOT the same holster you have with a straight drop. Its belt loops are very different. Plus, it's not really perfectly vertical, it has enough cant, well on me, so that the grip of the gun doesn't print.

    I think you'd really be pleased with the vertical scabbard.

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Commiechusetts
    Posts
    1,635
    AgentX, welcome!

    The discussion about tightness looks like a good place to put some of my concerns on similar tight OWB (and IWB) holsters when combined with wearing a ballistic vest.

    Now maybe my problem is unique to those of us who are "vertically challenged" . . . I am 5'8", 185#, ~40" waist with too much pot-belly.

    I carry a variety of guns/holsters as the attire, weather and mood suits me, but the issue with the ballistic vest always seems to be the same here. The butt of the gun crawls into and under the opening between the vest panels, giving me the willies if I ever had to draw quickly! Even with a tucked-in shirt over the vest, it still "creates a pocket".

    Combos:
    1911 - Milt Sparks SS2 (IWB)
    P99 - DeSantis Speed Scabbard (OWB), Milt Sparks SS2 (IWB)
    Sphinx AT2000P - Don Hume Double Nine (OWB)

    I haven't carried my G22 (or soon to buy G23) yet, but I'm sure I'll have the same issue with the following holsters:
    Alessi Close Quarters (IWB), Milt Sparks SS2 (IWB-will be ordering soon)

    Not an issue with lower slung OWBs, but that sacrifices concealability, which is important in my job.

    Have others seen this problem? Suggestions on how best to deal with it, besides losing weight? [Been working on that one, lost 12# over past few months.]

  14. #14
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    16,069
    new holsters will require some break in. I remember mine was about the same , but didn't ride my ribs.
    On a diffrent note, check out hte 5.11 gear for plainclothes wear and lots of gear storage.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  15. #15
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    476
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    If I may suggest, give Kramer a call, explain the problem, see if they'll let you swap the holster for a vertical scabbard. The vertical scabbard won't gap your belt; it will hold the gun in tight, but not too tight; it's much faster to draw from because you won't have to "...pull the grip directly away from my body to establish grip and clear my ribcage..." and it will help a wee bit that it's vertical.

    Just for clarity, the vertical scabbard is NOT the same holster you have with a straight drop. Its belt loops are very different. Plus, it's not really perfectly vertical, it has enough cant, well on me, so that the grip of the gun doesn't print.

    I think you'd really be pleased with the vertical scabbard.
    Sorry to ressurrect a zombie thread from the bottom of the pile, but I had a quick question. Since starting this thread, I determined that the holster I had wasn't for me, but that became a moot point for molded horsehide when they switched our used SIG P228s to brand-new SIG 229s.

    So, P95Carry and I worked a nice transaction for my old holster, since Kramer wouldn't take the trade in due to some slight wear, and I ordered what I thought was a vertical scabbard from them, as Tangle suggested. However, what I just got in the mail is really similar to what I recently sold...a traditional-style pancake holster, with 'wing' belt loops on front and rear edges, unlike the holster I expected to receive, which should have looked like this:


    Now, it happens to fit quite nicely compared to the old one, allows a better position more on my hip, conceals VERY well under a jacket, and allows a much better draw than the old one did. So I'm not complaining. But I am wondering if they sent me the wrong holster...?

    Whatever the case, now I just need to get my body armor so I can go get a few suits tailored for all this crap. Although I have to say I was really impressed with the way the full gunbelt and gear (double mag pouch, baton, OC, radio, cuffs, holster, belt badge, and cuff key lanyard) pretty much disappeared under one of my current, very tailored sportcoats. Don't think I'll be changing the tailoring much at all, except for whatever room I need in the chest for the vest.

    Thanks,

    MD

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Questions about carry
    By mrm in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: February 5th, 2009, 09:35 PM
  2. Total "newb" wondering if Moss 590's good for my first purchase? A few more newb Q's.
    By Northalius in forum Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: September 22nd, 2008, 01:35 PM
  3. Newb reloader questions
    By Pitbull in forum Reloading
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: March 21st, 2008, 04:31 PM
  4. IWB Carry Questions
    By freetrapper in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: January 8th, 2007, 06:27 PM

Search tags for this page

best ccw for owb carry

,
best plainclothes holster for suits fbi forward rake
,
normal-ride, fbi-cant , pancake-style speed scabbard
,
off duty owb carry
,

owb cant speed

,
owb carry
,
owb carry and draw speed
,
owb carry for ccw
,
pancake holstet gapping
Click on a term to search for related topics.