SERPA, it isn't "unsafe", the truth

This is a discussion on SERPA, it isn't "unsafe", the truth within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a SERPA. It was my first holster for my 1911. I love the holster for OWB carry. It is tight to the hip ...

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Thread: SERPA, it isn't "unsafe", the truth

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array LeCalsey's Avatar
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    I have a SERPA. It was my first holster for my 1911. I love the holster for OWB carry. It is tight to the hip and stays where I put it. The pull takes practice but at eth OP stated, it is VERY safe when practiced for proper draw. If I have not worn it for a few weeks, it takes some refamiliarization but you can overcome that easy enough.
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Mike, nice post.

    I have a Blackhawk CQC (non-SERPA) and think it is very well made. I haven't used a SERPA, but my working assumption to this point has been that the NDs have nothing to do with the SERPA button, and the people involved would have had their booger hooks on the trigger regardless of what holster they were using.

    Seems to me it goes like this: untrained newbies are more likely to have NDs; newbies are more likely to buy what is 'cool' and popular; SERPAs are 'cool' and popular, therefore they are disproportionately represented among the shooters most likely to have any sort of ND; therefore instructors see more NDs with SERPAs than with other holsters.

    Blaming the holster is a simple case of a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. My guess is they see more NDs with Glocks than with other guns for the same reasons outlined above, but all the instructors know in that case it is the shooter, not the gun.

    Your post and pics absolutely reinforce the above interpretation.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

    SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.

  4. #33
    Member Array patrol's Avatar
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    Serpa

    I own a few serpas. They are excellent holsters, especially the ones that come with both the paddle attachment and the belt attachment. They are approved as an offduty holster also for our department. I have one for my 1911,G27 and Jframe and love them all.
    having said this they did at one time have an issue with the ones made for the Glock 21. The problem was the high rise plastic on holstering bent over and got caught in the trigger guard inadvertently causing as the weapon was pushed down to fire. The plastic pulled the trigger. It happened on two occasions and luckily the users were slim in frame so they suffered no serious injuries. BlackHawk fixed this issue by making the plastic thicker and with less "excess".

  5. #34
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dal1Celt View Post
    But remember you are always going to have people disagree with you, no matter what (BAC this is not a slight directed at you).
    No offense taken. My beef is with the manner in which he's presenting his sample size of two as evidence that the holster is perfectly safe, and his implied suggestion that the folks who do dislike the holster are full of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by tnroadrunner View Post
    OK I know this thread has gone on long enough, but first let me mention this. In my readings on the SERPA holster the one thing that was not mentioned here was if a stone or something gets lodged in the release area and you can't push the button in there is no way of getting the gun out without taking the holster apart. I look at it this way if there is a possiblity of something going wrong it is not for me.
    The same is true of the Safariland ALS holsters, as discovered by a fairly large Utah police department. Even the SLS holsters can get jammed up by crud, and they're usually pretty fool-proof.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    No offense taken. My beef is with the manner in which he's presenting his sample size of two as evidence that the holster is perfectly safe,...
    Fallacy: Special Pleading

    And this is different than arguing that two incidents are evidence the holster is unsafe? Out of how many Serpa owners who have had no incidents, both in training, real life incidents and otherwise?

    Your argument is good, but it defeats your own position just as effectively as it defeats the OP's.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    And this is different than arguing that two incidents are evidence the holster is unsafe?
    Yes, it is. Even if a holster is 'unsafe', presumably, accidents will still be very rare, they will just be less rare than with other equipment. A 'safe' holster might have one ND out of every 20,000 draws in stressful situations, while an 'unsafe' one might have one ND out of every 10,000. Two draws without ND's don't tell us much, because even with an 'unsafe' holster, not having an ND is the norm. On the other hand, accidents tell us much more, because they are so rare. One or two accidents could double the accident rate for a holster, while one or two real world draws make almost no difference in the accident rate.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Yes, it is. Even if a holster is 'unsafe', presumably, accidents will still be very rare, they will just be less rare than with other equipment. A 'safe' holster might have one ND out of every 20,000 draws in stressful situations, while an 'unsafe' one might have one ND out of every 10,000. Two draws without ND's don't tell us much, because even with an 'unsafe' holster, not having an ND is the norm. On the other hand, accidents tell us much more, because they are so rare. One or two accidents could double the accident rate for a holster, while one or two real world draws make almost no difference in the accident rate.
    I have made hundreds of draws from my Serpa in tense training situations, including dynamic environments where we were moving over odd terrain. No ND's.

    Again - how does two incidents out of probably tens of thousands make the holster unsafe? The same way two successful draws in tense situations makes them safe: They don't.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  9. #38
    Member Array Red82's Avatar
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    I just think it's funny that people say they're so unsafe yet I can't count the number of cities that I've seen using the Serpa holster for their police! I haven't used one myself so some may say I'm ignorant, but I've used the displays and it seems to be a pretty natural draw to me. Granted maybe some people just don't like to have to practice with their gear. Maybe some people are just lazy. I dunno. I like it and am looking at getting one myself.
    Protection is a responsibility not just a right.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Again - how does two incidents out of probably tens of thousands make the holster unsafe? The same way two successful draws in tense situations makes them safe: They don't.
    They don't make it safe or unsafe, but because NDs are rare, they do tell us much more about the safety of the holster than draws without NDs do. Compare this to another area where accidents are relatively rare: airline safety. Crashes tell us much more about airline safety than a boringly safe flight from Buffalo to Cleveland.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    They don't make it safe or unsafe, but because NDs are rare, they do tell us much more about the safety of the holster than draws without NDs do. Compare this to another area where accidents are relatively rare: airline safety. Crashes tell us much more about airline safety than a boringly safe flight from Buffalo to Cleveland.
    So when our local PD had multiple ND's over the last decade with their Bianchi holsters, it tells us that Bianchi holsters are unsafe, right?

    I guess my point is, it doesn't tell us anything other than the shooter pulled the trigger when they shouldn't have.

    When a plane crashes, they don't call it mechanical failure without investigating the crash.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  12. #41
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Special pleading? Really? The basis of the OP's argument is that the holster is fine and he has two uses of it under stress to support his assertion. My position is that a lot of other knowledgeable people disagree, and the reasons why aren't arcane and mysterious. I'm not stating myself as an exception to anything, so I don't see how that fallacy applies even remotely.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    So when our local PD had multiple ND's over the last decade with their Bianchi holsters, it tells us that Bianchi holsters are unsafe, right?
    If the NDs were on the draw, it would be enough to make me take a look at the holsters and see if there was any way the holsters might be contributing to the problem.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Special pleading? Really? The basis of the OP's argument is that the holster is fine and he has two uses of it under stress to support his assertion. My position is that a lot of other knowledgeable people disagree, and the reasons why aren't arcane and mysterious. I'm not stating myself as an exception to anything, so I don't see how that fallacy applies even remotely.


    -B
    1. Several instructors ban Serpas after two incidents.

    2. OP safely drew his weapon from a Serpa under stress twice.

    3. (2) is false or is not proof because there are too few instances.

    4. (1) is true because (3) does not apply to my argument.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  15. #44
    BAC
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    1) My understanding is that it was many more than 2 incidents that lead to the instructors speaking out against the SERPA. 2 NDs resulting in injured officers, perhaps, but many others that didn't involve hits.

    2) OP safely drew his weapon from a SERPA under stress twice.

    3) #2 is true, but anecdotal and arguably statistically insignificant given the context of the discussion. Rates of NDs associated with use of specific holsters is what we should be looking at.

    4) No need to comment on. I'm fairly sure you misread my point, or that I didn't make my point clear enough.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  16. #45
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Similar argument: Glocks don't have a safety and have a light trigger pull. Therefore, they are unsafe. Let's all avoid using Glocks.

    After all, there are MANY instances of people unintentionally firing their Glocks.

    I DO think it is good to hear all sides of the argument.

    BUT, then we EACH make our own decision. Suarez, Pincus, Farnum, and Ayoob will not be there when you are forced to use your gear to defend yourself.

    As for me, I have listened to both sides and have decided that I won't worry about my Glock 19 in my Serpa holster.

    If this combo bothers you, don't use it.

    Simple.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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