Bluegrass holsters - how would you proceed?
This is a discussion on Bluegrass holsters - how would you proceed? within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi Folks...
I have not read all the replies to this thread, but I do have a couple things to say.
To the OP, I ...
June 29th, 2009 08:58 PM
I have not read all the replies to this thread, but I do have a couple things to say.
To the OP, I hope you feel better now. To the rest of the folks reading this, I have tried for quite some time to find a way to make custom holsters in the most expedient time frame for customers. Perhaps my health can get in the way too often, but that does not change the work I do. Given the limitations, storm damages from wind and ice over a period of a few months, the holster backlog grew to the point that I felt it warranted a suspension in taking new orders.
As for some of the other comments....well, you are entitled to your opinion. I spent quite a bit of time trying to come up with a fair way of dealing with the remaining paid customers. The letter so eloquently posted by the OP was the best way possible to offer customers a choice. I am MORE THAN HAPPY to refund money to folks....period.
It comes down to a simple decision, if you want the holster it will be made....no I am not going to make promises as to how long as I cannot see into the future to see if my health will be an issue...if the customer wants to trade their order in for a hybrid and a partial refund that is fine, too. Seems there is something for everyone in the decision I have made.
If you want to beat me up that is fine....
As for the hybrid holsters, one of the reasons I went this route, besides being able to produce a holster for a customer in a shorter period of time and having that holster be something that lives for many years, is that I don't have to specifically spend time with each holster. The staff can work on orders even if I am ill....and that is a good thing for customers.
I'll let you get back to your witch hunt. I won't apologize for doing the right thing in trying to make things right with my customers.
June 29th, 2009 09:02 PM
My apologies, but there is no contract with my holsters. I have the ability to cancel an order if do not believe I can fill it as originally stated. In this case the changes I made were for expediency and NOT A SINGLE customer is being forced into taking any option...in fact, if a customer does nothing, they will be getting a refund. The customer can look at Option Two and decide for themselves if this meets their need....obviously I am giving in several cases something of greater value than what the customer paid initially...if the option does not meet their need they are free to choose one of the others...or obtain a refund with my apologies that I could not make their holster fast enough.
Originally Posted by QKShooter
Oh, and the SOL remark...kind of harsh. I set the time limits as I am not going to wait on getting the final holsters finished. At the moment I am running a lot more for keeping their holster order than cancelling AND swapping for a hybrid combined. Bottom line, I want the customer to tell me that they want the order completed, and I want them to know that the order will take whatever time it takes to send them something they will enjoy. If they cannot, or will not respond to the email then I will do what is necessary, including a phone call or two, to get their decision.
Again, flame on....but the effort is to make things right with my customers, regardless of whether it is embarrassing or not.
June 29th, 2009 09:33 PM
I'll help you make the decision as it appears regardless of the quality, or if it were possible to hand you the holster tomorrow, that you would not be satisfied.
Originally Posted by SwollenGoat
Send me a PM with your order number/name and the refund will be processed.
June 29th, 2009 09:35 PM
Brock, good of you to reply. I truly wish you no ill will, but your actions leave much to be questioned. Other than your phone call to get my new credit card info. this was the last personal email I rec'd from you on Feb. 13th.
Not a problem....I am coming up on your holster and will call for the details on your new card.
I spoke to you a week or two later, we had a nice chat and you said you were planning on starting my holster soon and would be charging my card once production began. (My card was charged March 5.) I was honestly thinking I'd have my holster no later than the end of March. Time went by, I sent several emails over the past few months, none of them you bothered replying to.
I truly am sorry if you have been faced with illness or personal issues. However, much of what I would define as a person's true "character" is exposed in the face of adversity. I own my own business, I have made mistakes, and I have done my best to rectify them. In each and every case communication was key and I did what was best for my customer - not necessarily what was best or easiest for me.
I have yet to decide my course of action. Your options leave much to be desired, especially considering the inconvenience and wasted time I and others have had to endure.
June 29th, 2009 09:48 PM
A good and reputable business man does make a contract of sorts. If he cannot deliever he informs the customer and attempts to help the customer obtain satisfaction.
Frankly, you act as if you are doing the customer a great favor to take his money and deliver when it suits you. I had a similar problem with you.
I cannot imagine that folks are satisfied with your attitude of "I won't make any promises so you take what you get when I get ready to give it to you."
When I order something, I can make some allowances for unforseen circumstances to a degree, but there is a limit to that. I want a product, and am willing to pay. If the maker cannnot or does not deliver I have not obtained my product. All the excuses ever thought up won't get my product if all I get is excuses, and statments such as "I won't tolerate.."
Anyway, that is my take on you and your business practices. Folks can deal with you if they desire. You do make a good product, but you are not nearly good enough for me to tolerate your attitudes and results.
After my experience with you, I had really hoped you had learned something about a business and how to treat customers. Sadly, that has not been the case.
June 29th, 2009 09:52 PM
I think you might want to run that idea that you have no contract past your lawyer. Once you take the money, I'm betting there's an implicit contract.
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Holsters
And that's from a strictly legal point of view. A lot of folks, me included, are going to feel that regardless of what the law says, taking people's money for ordered goods, ignoring them for months, and then sending out a hostile email like that is scummy behavior.
Arguing that you've got the law on your side and that you're justified in doing what you've done really doesn't do much more than entrench the view that you're in the wrong, know it, but refuse to admit it.
Most businesses who delayed orders, neglected to respond to customers inquiries about delays, etc. would be attempting to figure out a way to compensate those customers by delivering to those customers MORE than what they ordered, without any additional cost. Instead, you're sending out email attempting to coerce those customers into settling for less than what they ordered.
You're a really bad businessman. Your future customer base ought to keep that in mind.
Good luck with the hybrid holster thing. Too bad Crossbreed and Comp-Tac seem to have that market segment sewn up, especially since those two companies have earned well-deserved reputations for under-promising and over-delivering.
June 29th, 2009 09:54 PM
How in the world do you make that assumption from that post?!? In fact Brock, you can eat a little crow as here was a post I made back in early June within the "Where's my holster?" thread.
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Holsters
So there you have it Brock, I really only want my holster. However, since you can't really tell me even an estimate of a completion date - I can't help but wonder if you'll take me down the same path again. Can you even admit as to how many paid customers are currently waiting for a holster? How many are waiting that ordered ahead of me? *I checked my records and placed my order the last week of October 2008. If there are other orders ahead of mine then you need to get them taken care of ahead of me. Stop with the excuses, stop with the drama, don't posture and do what is right. Your reputation is on the line here.
Originally Posted by SwollenGoat
June 29th, 2009 10:45 PM
Sorry but, I really don't have the time or the volition to go to your website and review your original terms and conditions but, they are probably not posted there anymore anyway.
Actually, when you own a business and a customer pays for a specific mutually agreed upon product and they are told that they can expect delivery of that product within a certain period of time...that IS a contract.
There does not have to be a "signed by both parties" dated, sheet of paper.
It is an understood contract and it is legally binding and enforceable.
When a customer pays in advance for goods and or services there is an understood normal expectation that they will receive their product within a reasonable period of the originally promised or specified delivery date.
Even if that original delivery time was approximate - For example:
No reasonable person would assume that "approximately" 3 weeks was in any way equal to an actual waiting time of 4 or 6 months.
If this customer was promised a delivery date sooner than 4 months and your company has subsequently made itself unavailable to all forms of communication related to his order AKA not available to answer questions as to when the customer can expect delivery then that is "unethical business practice" no matter if you want to believe that it is not.
Also basically you have held onto his money for 4 months which is money that he could have already spent someplace else if he was able to get some sort of communication or honest answer earlier.
I don't have any dog in this fight and I'm nothing more than an outside observer.
Certainly though I believe that this member is being truthful and that his post is factual.
After so many years as a forum moderator I can pretty much always sort out the truth from the prevarications and exaggerations.
The point that I really want to make is that YES! Unexpected Stuff happens.
And I (for sure) am getting absolutely no joy at all in hearing that you have had health related problems.
Friendly advice though...The E-mail that you sent out came across as being harsh and rude and basically it reads like: "It's My Way Or The Highway"
Trusting customers that have stuck by you during a prolonged illness do not deserve that at all.
You cannot fault them for wanting answers to questions about the status of their order or the whereabouts of their dollars.
Your illness caused frustrations for you and so you should be even more able to understand how THEY feel.
What they deserve NOW is to be treated in an extra nice fashion with you going the extra mile for them.
My suggestion to all holster buyers is to pay with a major credit card.
That way if your order does not arrive near when it is supposed to then make one phone call to the credit card company - (phone answers 24 hours a day)
Dispute the charge and your credit card company will refund your account immediately & then they will go after the other party for the money but, you will already be out of the loop and can go shopping someplace else.
"Oh, and the SOL remark...kind of harsh."
And concerning my SOL comment. Read the letter you sent out...that's harsh.
The member paid for something - he never got it - he was never able to find out why - then out of the blue he gets a rude whole new "playbook" and still no definitive answer as to exactly when he will get exactly what he paid for....I dunno...sure smells like something vaguely reminiscent of SOL to me.
But, then again...what do I know?
June 29th, 2009 11:18 PM
As I have stated....
send me a PM with your name and info and I will process a refund for you.
My apologies that I did not serve your needs.
June 29th, 2009 11:42 PM
thank you for your input and please understand that I have no need to further "defend" myself or my actions. Both parties can cancel contracts in most cases....my customers have always been able to cancel their order even after receiving the holster and trying it out...something that many holster makers do not allow.
Regardless, all customers (with only a rare exception for a repeat customer or so) pay by credit card...that is how refunds are processed, too...back to the card used in payment.
While I respect your input, I have not changed my mind on how I am handling this situation. I have offered customers more than they ordered in some cases and if they do not like the situation then they will be compensated for their order. Period. Reminds me of a tale told by my grandpappy....no way to please everyone, just pick a course, do what you think is right and move forward.
Again, my apologies for those who are not happy with the situation. Amazing that the folks that had orders shipped overnight, expedited orders when the original seemed to have been lost in transit, the various upgrades given when I stated a time frame only to choose to remake a holster because I didn't like the fit...knowing I cost myself with my own standards....funny how nothing like this ever makes into these kinds of threads.
I know how I have tried to treat my customers. The path I have chosen to notify my customers and to set things back on track were done with the best of character and determination. I frankly don't care if you don't like my efforts....I am sure that you, or someone would be incensed if I handled it in some other way, too.
I am done responding in this thread. As stated to the OP....once you identify yourself I will process a refund.
Again, my apologies.
June 30th, 2009 12:19 AM
Have not purchased a Bluegrass product but the emphasized (emphasis mine) portion of the quote below would prevent me from doing business with them or any business that sent out a bulk email to customers containing that type of language.
To the OP -- I would select option 1 -- immediately. There are plenty of reliable holster makers out there. Bluegrass holsters may someday rebuild a good reputation for customer service, but it won't be by sending out letters such as the one above.
If I do not receive an affirmative answer I will cancel your order and refund your money as I simply need to get to the bottom of the work pile and will not tolerate any further complaints about lack of delivery
Sig 239 SAS 40 S&W / Sig 239 9mm / Kahr PM-9 / Walther PPS .40 / Sig P-245 / Ruger LCP
Beretta Tomcat / Walther PPK / BDA 380 / Taurus 85 / Kel-Tec PF-9 / Am. Derringer 357
NRA Life Member
My Web Site
June 30th, 2009 12:36 AM
I'd take Options-#1, but keep it civil...never burn your bridges.
We all can learn from our mistakes...but WE should choose the ones we want to learn from...
(I know it can't always work that way.)
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
June 30th, 2009 12:58 AM
Take option one and move on.
We can't stop here...this is bat country.
Res Ipsa Loquitur
June 30th, 2009 01:21 AM
I'm not going to get into what the OP should do because I think he has gotten excellent information on that. What I want to briefly refer to is the word "contract". Kentucky is, along with every other state, covered by the Uniform Commercial Code and according to the UCC a contract was made and is enforceable. Like it or not, want it or not the contract exists. What the OP and Brock do about it is up to them, but don't doubt that a contract (and not an implied one) exists.
That said; I, too, wonder about the integrity of someone who stops making deliveries and stops responding to customers at one business while advertising and delivering products from a new business.
I also question the integrity of someone who claims to have have a number of names trademarked, but none actually are trademarked according to the US Patent and Trademark Office.
Even more questionable is the statement: "This attachment design on the custom holsters are trademarked, too." Why is this questionable? Because the USPTO says the following about what can be trademarked:
A quick check of the USPTO website explains that the word "design" in the above statement means something that can be used as an identifying mark. Examples of "designs" would be:
A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others.
The design of an attachment is not something that distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others and therefore cannot be trademarked.
When two separate websites belonging to the same person both make the same fallacious statements I have to question the validity of any and all other statements contained in those sites. Now it appears from the events recorded in this thread that there were ample reasons to doubt the accuracy and validity of any claims made on the sites.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein
June 30th, 2009 04:04 AM
I would get my money back and never look back....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
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