October 4th, 2009 05:20 PM
Pre-paying custom gunleather makers
I've been a member here for close to three years. I've seen at least a half-dozen gunleather Makers wind up in troubles of various degrees in that time, some disappearing forever, others disappearing then magically re-appearing--and thought I'd pose a question. I didn't want to do a poll because it limits the amount of discussion available. This way, you can offer your opinions, and maybe shed some light on the whole deal.
Personally, I don't accept orders (at this time), and I do not accept pre-payment. My personal reasons are that I don't want to have your money until I've shipped your product.
Companies and individuals like Sparks, DelFatti, K&D, etc., have a history of doing what they say they'll do when they say they'll do it. I would have no problem whatsoever pre-paying these folks. Others, less-known, or with a shorter history, I'd have an issue with paying them in advance.
Where's your "comfort-level?" How much, if any, would you be comfortable paying in advance on a custom gunleather order? Half down? Zero down? Payment in full?
I'm curious to see your responses, just as I'm sure other Makers reading these threads are.
October 4th, 2009 05:25 PM
After seeing the same things you have, I won't pay in advance until they're ready to start my order. If my order doesn't get to me when they say it's going to, I'm disputing the charges. If they want to charge me when my order is done, even better. No up front payments. So far I haven't gotten royally hosed by a holster maker and I hope I can say the same thing 20 years from now.
October 4th, 2009 05:38 PM
I agree, completely. Since the time to dispute a credit card charge is limited, and many of the custom-Makers list delivery times far beyond your time to dispute a charge, by the time one realizes he/she's being jerked around, you don't have any recourse via the credit card issuer. The time has run, and you're out of luck.
Originally Posted by JD
I won't pay "in advance," nor will I recommend doing so. I will happily pay at the time of shipment (or, at the time of "cutting leather") assuming I get a confirmation my item/s have shipped within a week or so. That includes a tracking or delivery confirmation number.
That way, if I receive a sub-par, or junk product, I have time to deal with it first through the Maker by returning it and seeking a refund, or, if necessary, getting a chargeback from my credit card provider.
October 4th, 2009 05:40 PM
I like using Paypals or my CC. This way I have some recourse.
Otherwise the seller makes the terms of payment .
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
October 4th, 2009 05:42 PM
October 4th, 2009 06:12 PM
I knew you were gonna say that.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
October 4th, 2009 06:19 PM
I generally only purchase quality products from reputable sources. When it comes to anything custom to spec, though, I'm in the "Payment in Full ahead of time" camp. The line of my comfort level is determined via vendor selection, not via payment method.
Originally Posted by BruceGibson
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
October 4th, 2009 06:21 PM
I would pre-pay only if the maker had a long history of ethical business practices. Although I have never been burned from the standpoint of non-delivery, I have had to "fight" to get holsters delivered months after the promised date.
With long established makers such as Sparks, I have no problem giving my credit card, and them not charging until they are beginning to work on my order.
If a business must have all the money up front I consider that they must be in financial troubles, and I may never get the item or the money back.
I once order a custom gun from a maker. He was young and had an excellent reputation as a custom smith. He required 3/4 down up front and about 15 months to deliver. As it turned out he died, and guess what about the money? I did get some parts, but nowhere near the worth of the deposit.
Live and learn, and "A fool and his money are soon parted."
October 4th, 2009 06:36 PM
I agree with that, too. With Sparks, there's a crew of (I believe) 5 or 6 people making their products. If one were to keel over belly-up, then you still have 4 or 5 folks able to competently fill your order. That's one of the reasons I cited Sparks in my original post. The other reason is their spotless, long-term reputation.
Originally Posted by JerryM
With a sole proprietor, you don't have that assurance. He or she could die, quit, or run off. In each case, you're out your investment unless it falls within the credit card company's window of opportunity to dispute the charge.
I'm curious to hear what folks use as a deciding factor in whether or not to lay-out a chunk of money on the word of a holster-maker. Primarily, why you would trust one, but not another. Or, why you would trust any.
Names aren't necessary--in fact, I'd rather no names are mentioned. I'm more interested in your personal motivations. Why do you trust who you trust. Why DON'T you trust who you don't? And, don't feel it necessary to name them.
October 4th, 2009 06:40 PM
I am a new holster maker who works at holsters part time. Most of my clients pay up front but there is not an option to pay until we have all the details worked out. If someone is not comfortable then I will accept 50% up front and the balance once I am ready to ship. I completely understand someone not wanting to get burned or have money tied up for months on end. Please understand that I also do not want to be burned. I am a small business and would hate to make a custom holster for someone just to have them back out at the last minute.
My situation is a little different than bigger operations. I only make holsters for customers that have established an order with me. I do not make anything in advance or keep on hand stock holsters. In my opinion...if someone wants custom leather, they should be willing to pay at least half in advance.
Just my $.02.
October 4th, 2009 06:58 PM
I just took a look at your site, Carl, and you do very nice work. I appreciate your taking the time to post on this topic.
Originally Posted by ccholsters
October 5th, 2009 03:08 AM
A lot of it depends on the maker and his reputation. I've had some difficulties with a maker and it was frustrating but I'll admit, he more than made up for it in the end. Would I do it again? At this point, yes. There are a couple that I'll never order from again but everything was resolved one way or another.
I've also paid upfront with Lou Alessi, Gordon Davis, Ken Null, FIST, Comp-Tac and Nate at UBG before he started his current policy. There are many others that I'd feel comfortable doing so because of their reputation. John Ralston at 5-shot, Milt Sparks, Matt Delfatti just to name a few. Some of the makers on this forum like MNBurl or maybe even Bruce Gibson wouldn't concern me in the least.
Reputation is everything. Some get it, some learn it the hard way and some never do.
BTW, Bruce, I check your site at least a couple times a month. When are you going to start making belts again?
"In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero
October 5th, 2009 07:34 AM
Bruce, you are welcome. I don't know if it helps your situation but I just wanted everyone to know it can be scary from either side of a transaction.
Originally Posted by BruceGibson
I have admired your work since seeing it on LW. Good luck on your site updating...you don't need luck on your leather.
October 5th, 2009 08:21 AM
I can't find fault with anything stated above by Bruce Gibson or JD.
I should mention that DefensiveCarry members are quite safe buying from DC forum sponsors because they will not stay sponsors for very long if they start crapping around & playing games with member money.
Milt Sparks, Matt Del Fatti, Pure Kustom, UBG, Desbiens, Gibson Gunleather, Crossbreed, High Noon, South Fork, FIST, are all obviously non-problematic.
Eric from HBE (to his credit) has turned himself around and now does not charge customers until he is ready to ship their product.
Sadly Louis Alessi has passed away but, I am positive that the folks that are still producing fine holsters under the Alessi name would never conduct that business in such a way as to embarrass or demean the Alessi good name.
In much the same way that Tony Kanaley would never ruin the good name of Milt Sparks.
Sparks is just flawless regarding the way their business is run....thanks to Tony K.
And then the reason that I decided that I am All For Human Cloning is that scientists really need to clone Matt Del Fatti. The world desperately needs about 10 more Matts.
New to DefensiveCarry or entry level custom holster makers are treading on very thin ice when they charge a credit card right away these days.
That would be because the water underneath that thin ice has already been severely polluted by some real crooks that have preceded you.
So if you take that money in advance then you had best work all night on Sundays and even on Christmas Morning in order to meet your promised delivery dates or the Internet bad-mouthing will start and that is never very good for business.
Word travels lightning fast on the Internet and once it starts there is no stopping it.
I should add that we have so many new members joining DefensiveCarry every single week.
Many of those newbie folks are probably asking: "Just Who IS This Bruce Gibson Guy?"
Bruce has had an interesting life.
You can read his story by going here: ~~~~> http://www.gibsonprorodeo.com/ABOUT%...%20COMPANY.htm & though he is not quite as good looking as I am, there is a photo posted of him there also.
Bruce is a genuine official Bull Rider. His assorted "Cowboy/Rodeo Leather" is of the very highest uber-professional quality.
I have never met Bruce "face to face" but, I am honored to call him a cyber friend.
These days his holsters are just as fine as his other Western leather work.
October 5th, 2009 09:34 AM
Pretty much the same as people here: those companies with a track record of trustworthy delivery promises tend ALSO to not charge the CC until the rig is ready to be built. I would order from any of them (and indeed HAVE ordered from most of them) without a second thought.
But having been burned (and hearing a hundred or so similar stories here) by the one man shops who shine you on with a bogus delivery promise; then charge your CC within microseconds of taking the order; and then instantly become non-responsive and even evasive to follow-up phone calls; or when you actually get hold of them, it's always "your holster/belt/whatever is right here and will ship out this week" and of course doesn't; then next thing you know it's been 9 months and there's no products -- never again. We all know who these companies are ...never again.
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