Dual 1911's - not SOB, but similar...

Dual 1911's - not SOB, but similar...

This is a discussion on Dual 1911's - not SOB, but similar... within the Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've read several of the threads on here and other forums about the danger of carrying SOB. Actually I saw the first warning over at ...

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Thread: Dual 1911's - not SOB, but similar...

  1. #1
    Member Array Trade_Sniper's Avatar
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    Question Dual 1911's - not SOB, but similar...

    I've read several of the threads on here and other forums about the danger of carrying SOB. Actually I saw the first warning over at gunzone.com. Dean Speirs wrote an article about it and listed his contact info. I sent him an email which is almost exactly what I'm writing below and he wanted $1250 to formulate a response.

    I didn't know that the 3 minutes required to read my email and 'It'll be fine', 'Don't do it', 'I don't know' or 'Leave me alone, I'm busy' was so expensive. Apparently it actually requires "call it half-a-day" to read the email and respond...So, I'm back where I should have come in the first place.

    Oh well, here is my question. Right now I carry a single, Dan Wesson full-size, stainless 1911 .45ACP in a Milt Sparks Versa-Max II IWB holster (grip forward cant) at the 3:30-4:00 position. Its an excellent holster, very comfortable and outstanding concealability.

    I don't carry a backup gun yet, but plan to as soon as I can afford another one. I am of the philosophy that I only want to shoot, practice and train with one specific gun, so its always the same feel, recoil, weight, size, etc., plus uses the same magazines. So, with that said, I plan to purchase another identical 1911 for my backup gun.

    Trying to conceal two full size 1911's takes some thought. I'm a pretty small guy, 5'6", 135 lbs. I have considered shoulder holsters, but due to my small frame size, the barrel of a 5" 1911 would poke out the back of my shirt I believe on a shoulder holster with a gun held horizontally. If they are held vertically, or angled, I think the grip of the gun would stick out the front, or at least be easy to see unless I was wearing something like a closed or nearly-closed coat or jacket. Basically, not an optimum solution for a small guy. I have been trying to come up with other solutions, including carrying one in a smartcarry holster covering my nether-regions, another probably non-optimum solution, but wouldn't print as bad. It may be what I have to do if my next suggestion is unacceptable.

    I have been thinking of wearing two holsters like the one I have now, only the other one would be reversed for a left handed draw. This wouldn't have the same spine crushing drawbacks as a typical SOB holster would it? Since the guns aren't actually over the top of the spine, they are behind each hip with a gap where the spine is. It might actually offer some protection for the spine since you would have two guns helping to separate your body away from a flat surface during an impact. Does that make sense? So, if I carried this way, would I be in any more danger of a spinal injury than my current mode of carry, or would this method be OK? I could see at a worst case scenario, suffering injury to one or both kidneys from the gun grips, but they are soft tissue and a little more forgiving than metal on bone (spine), plus I would think that hips would offer some more protection and take the brunt of it. As it stands now, I and I'd say a large majority of those currently carrying handguns would be taking at least half of that risk to the kidney already as the 3:30-4:00 position is one of the most common locations. Only the grip of the gun sticks up high enough to affect the kidney and I would think that at worst you might suffer a bruise. If the injury is worse than that, you probably have other, worse injuries, to worry about from whatever caused the injury.

    Anyway, I wanted to see what your thoughts are on this if you have the time, it would be greatly appreciated. I try to put a lot of thought into everything I do related to firearms. Training, mental prep, equipment selection, law, concealment, etc. I want to ensure I do the right things to give myself the best fighting chance while remaining as safe as possible in the process.
    *** IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, DIAL - 1911 ***

    Dan Wesson / CZ: Pointman 7, Stainless .45 ACP
    LaserMax, Carbon Fiber Ultra-thin Grips, Milt Sparks VM2, Milt Sparks 1.5" Tapered Gun Belt, Nickel Buckle, Galco Dual Magazine Carrier

    Charles Daly: Field Hunter VR-MC, Semi-Auto 12g


  2. #2
    Member Array clt46910's Avatar
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    My personal opinion on this type of worry over injury is that it is over thinking a pontental problem. While I don't deny that you can substain a injury of with this type carry, what are the odds? You could be hit from a falling brick also, but would you worry about it in your everyday life? You are much more likely to recieve a head injury while driving or being injured while taking a shower.

    I think your idea of carry will work for you. A gun on each side. I remember seeing a rig for twin carry of SOB. The guns did not sit over the spine but on each side of it. That could be a option for you. I can't remember right now where I seen it, but I am sure one of the other members will know where it is.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Kevin's Avatar
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    Something like this?



    I think this is from Pale Horse Gunleather or something like that

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Gideon's Avatar
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    Two 1911's, do you live in a war zone? I mean it's your right and all but that's a LOT of weight and gear for someone your size (I'm just about the same size) and I can't imagine you being comfortable with all that for any length of time. Following principles of risk assessment, you must feel you're treading in dangerous territory! Just curious.

    Gideon

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trade_Sniper
    Dean Speirs wrote an article about it and listed his contact info. I sent him an email which is almost exactly what I'm writing below and he wanted $1250 to formulate a response.
    Well, ol' Dean-O has to keep The Gun Zone going somehow, doesn't he?

    Having cracked my tailbone, when I was a teenager, no, I wouldn't use MOB. SOB (over the flank), offers you more padding. If you are frontally assaulted, and taken down, odds are good you'll sustain a back injury- why go out of the way to potentially make it worse?

    Bear in mind- dual carry means you have two weapons to retain. If I smack your head, and pull your jacket up from behind to bring your face towards my upcoming knee, what do I see? Lo and behold! Right there, a .45, perfectly in place for my right hand to draw, and put a couple into your back.

    I'm not saying disarming anyone is necessarily easy, but I'm not in favor of carry I can't shield to some extent, while using the other hand to beat/shield/fall-break/shove, etc.. Not all p[roblems need to be terminally solved. Carrying something you can't be very sure of controlling means that you will be more likely to have to resort to deadly force.

  6. #6
    Member Array The Goose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72
    Well, ol' Dean-O has to keep The Gun Zone going somehow, doesn't he?

    Having cracked my tailbone, when I was a teenager, no, I wouldn't use MOB. SOB (over the flank), offers you more padding. If you are frontally assaulted, and taken down, odds are good you'll sustain a back injury- why go out of the way to potentially make it worse?

    Bear in mind- dual carry means you have two weapons to retain. If I smack your head, and pull your jacket up from behind to bring your face towards my upcoming knee, what do I see? Lo and behold! Right there, a .45, perfectly in place for my right hand to draw, and put a couple into your back.

    I'm not saying disarming anyone is necessarily easy, but I'm not in favor of carry I can't shield to some extent, while using the other hand to beat/shield/fall-break/shove, etc.. Not all p[roblems need to be terminally solved. Carrying something you can't be very sure of controlling means that you will be more likely to have to resort to deadly force.
    Wow, great response. Food for thought!

  7. #7
    Member Array Dave James's Avatar
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    THe double rig shown in the other post is also made by CHarter Oak,, but I would think long and hard about dual 1911's.

    If your job or "AO" require you or you just feel better doubling up, I would suggest, going with an Officer or Commander size as a back up.

    Like you posted the easier way to carry is shoulder rig and belt,, I carried a Colt 357 6" in a shoulder rig and my S&W 27 3 1/2" on the hip for a few years,, at the end of the day you sure knew it..

    Stay away from the spine carry, we are to moblie, in and out of cars,, standing setting ,, its just to much for the back,,

    ANother way to carry is go for the strong side just above the hip, and then weak side cross draw,, or just up size the pants enough to admit into the waist a dual pair of IWB's holsters,, and don't forget the extra ammo.

    And ,as has been pointed out, there is now the extra weapon involved, now you move to going to more secure holsters, no more speed rigs, you have to up the ante.

    IF system is more important, then caliber, this is what I see are your options,,

    Now if caliber is a little flexable,and the system isn't then look to finding one of the Colt pocket pitols in 380, go for pocket carry as BUG while the 1911 rides on the hip.

    Now if system and caliber are a little flexable I would suggest a 1911 and a Pocket Khar{steel} in your choice of caliber, its close in feel to the 1911, but is DAO.

    Can't think of any thing else,, when I was working in the LEO field I carry as soon as department reg's let me any where from 2 to 3 handguns,, last years it was the 229/40, P9, and the Pokemon {Khar Mk-40} on the vest as a last ditch, the 229 had 2 extra amg's the Khar-9 1, the vest gun none,,as you can see with ever thing else on the bat -belt weight becomes a factor

  8. #8
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Howdy!
    I believe you are describing a mirrior image set up. I've got clients who do opt for this approach - wearing a matching right and left hand holster (both strong side) behind the respective hip bones.
    This is a very viable solution. However, as was previously stated, you are presented with the problem of having to maintain control of two weapons if someone attempts to disarm you.
    Also (particularily given your size) a pair of steel framed 5" 1911's is going to be a lot to carry. The same approach would be MUCH simpler if you were to choose a pair of alloy/Ti framed 3" or 3/12" guns instead.
    FWIW, SOB is tremendously dangerous, and I STRONGLY advise against it - in any form whatsoever.
    Please call me if I can be of further help (and you don't have to buy a holster to talk to me) Thanks!

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Just so you know, my response is FREE, no charge. I would have told Dean Speirs where he could shove his $1250 reply.

    Anyway I cannot imagine carrying 2 1911's. One is almost too much for all day carry for me and I am bigger than you. You might try extra magazines for that heavy a gun instead. If not, go to a bug for backup. A little practice and you won't have a problem switching from one gun to another.

    I carry a Kahr Arms P9 for may main carry gun. Sometimes a Springfield 1911 A1 but like I said it is a load to carry after awhile. I also carry a 2 shot 9MM Derringer if I feel the need for a back up. It's not meant to fight a battle with, just get me out of trouble. Unless you are in a war zone I don't see the necessity for two 1911's.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    I tried the SOB format once,

    Keyword their is ONCE,

    After riding into town in the car, and in and out a couple of times running errands, My back was killing me for a week and half. That was with one G21 full size. I can't imagine trying it with two guns.

    Try this at home, take two guns, (unloaded of course) and just put them in place mexican style,(no holster) and sit in your car, and sit in a couple of chairs in the house, that will give you an idea of what you are looking at. A holster may make it not dig as bad, but just having that much of any material stuck back there is a real pain in the

    FWIW
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  11. #11
    Member Array Trade_Sniper's Avatar
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    Good info. Gun retention is something major to consider.

    Shoulder holsters don't lend themselves to summer-time, high heat carry very well when you wear less clothing and the material itself tends to be lighter. At least thats what I would think, I've never worn one so I don't know for sure. I know I am always worried about my unbuttoned cover shirt blowing open while walking in the wind and showing my gun. In its current position IWB at 3:30-4:00, it is much harder to see it than I had thought, which is why I like that location.

    I would have to try one of those holsters pictured to see how they draw compared to my current mode with the grip pointed inwards instead of outwards. This would mean reaching all of my hand/fingers between the grip and my back to draw instead of just my thumb. So I'm not sure if it would be easier/faster or harder. This is why I thought about getting another one just like I have but flipped because I know how to draw this one and its pretty fast. But until I try it, I have no way of knowing, the grip pointed out like the pic above may be faster/easier because you don't have to reach behind so far to grab it.

    As far as weight, I think it would only be like adding 1/3 more than I have now, maybe a little more and I carry the current weight just fine. I carry every waking moment of the day/night which helps to condition me to the extra weight. I currently carry two extra mags full. I don't think any extra mags will be necessary if I add another gun that takes the same magazine. With two guns having 7+1, then two full magazines, that makes for 30 rounds, which for all intensive purposes should be enough. So the only thing added will be a gun and another holster or swapping current holster for a two-gun model (pictured above).

    I won't budge on my gun choice (large 1911). I *might* consider a Commander size, but am not sure that it would make much of a difference in weight or concealability. I have small hands and this gun just FITS, like a glove. I shot many different kinds, styles and brands of guns before picking this one and when I put it in my hand and shot it, it was like an extension of myself. I think because of this, I shoot it very accurately (more than any of the other types I tried). It is a heavy gun, but part of that is why I like it, reduced recoil with a large calibur. I also like the single action. Its just the right gun for me.

    So having said all of this, what are the options or recommendations pertaining to retention? Is there a better way to carry a BUG like this while keeping it reasonably secure?

    Would two holsters like I have now, with one flipped offer more retention because of the direction/angle of the grips or is there no difference compared to the one pictured above?

    In the colder months, I would consider carrying one in a shoulder holster, but still feel these would be easier to grab than one that is behind me. Normally you will face a threat (maybe at an angle), so a gun behind you seems like it would be more secure. I won't let a threat get close enough to me to 'smack me in the head'. Things would have already escalated to a much more dramatic level by then. Plus I still have the concern of printing with a shoulder holster, with either the grip or end of the barrel.

    I suppose a SmartCarry is still an option, I am just not sure how comfortable such a large gun will be there, not to mention having to urinate. Its bad enough now with the existing weight pulling down on my pants, add to that the difficulty of getting the smartcarry out of the way, I might wet myself before I got everything situated.

    Can you urinate through just a zipper opening (top button and belt still fastened) with a large gun in a smartcarry?

    I hate to ask such personal questions, but these are REAL issues and just a part of it all.
    *** IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, DIAL - 1911 ***

    Dan Wesson / CZ: Pointman 7, Stainless .45 ACP
    LaserMax, Carbon Fiber Ultra-thin Grips, Milt Sparks VM2, Milt Sparks 1.5" Tapered Gun Belt, Nickel Buckle, Galco Dual Magazine Carrier

    Charles Daly: Field Hunter VR-MC, Semi-Auto 12g

  12. #12
    Member Array Trade_Sniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son
    I tried the SOB format once,

    Keyword their is ONCE,

    After riding into town in the car, and in and out a couple of times running errands, My back was killing me for a week and half. That was with one G21 full size. I can't imagine trying it with two guns.

    Try this at home, take two guns, (unloaded of course) and just put them in place mexican style,(no holster) and sit in your car, and sit in a couple of chairs in the house, that will give you an idea of what you are looking at. A holster may make it not dig as bad, but just having that much of any material stuck back there is a real pain in the

    FWIW
    I have thought about this. As I said, it can't be a tremendous difference from what I have now. I already have one gun a 3:30-4:00 and a dual mag carrier with two full mags located in the same spot on the other hip, carried every waking hour, standing, sitting, driving. So I'm already used to sitting (and driving) on this gun and mag carrier. I would have to relocate my dual mag carrier to put another holster there, not sure where to. My current holster is plenty comfortable. Sure, its not like nothing is there, but its more than tolerable for the long hours I carry it. Total comfort was never expected. I started off 3-4 hours, then 5-6 hours, then 7-8 hours and built up to carrying it all the time, in home and out. I did it this way purposely to get my body conditioned to carrying the extra weight and bulk and to get me used to moving, sitting, etc. with it while at the same time not banging it against chairs, walls, people, etc. It takes some lifestyle/movement modification, but I've adapted pretty well. Even though I am small, I am muscular, so I carry my weight very well.

    I know it will add more weight, but not dramatically more than I already carry.
    *** IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, DIAL - 1911 ***

    Dan Wesson / CZ: Pointman 7, Stainless .45 ACP
    LaserMax, Carbon Fiber Ultra-thin Grips, Milt Sparks VM2, Milt Sparks 1.5" Tapered Gun Belt, Nickel Buckle, Galco Dual Magazine Carrier

    Charles Daly: Field Hunter VR-MC, Semi-Auto 12g

  13. #13
    Member Array Trade_Sniper's Avatar
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    Also, keep in mind, I'm not objecting or disagreeing with any of your posts, far from it, I appreciate the information greatly. Just trying to let you understand how much of this I have though about. All of the points mentioned by everyone are valid. I'm just trying to find the best compromise that works for me. Thats the one benefit I could see in the smartcarry is it would offset some weight to the front.
    *** IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, DIAL - 1911 ***

    Dan Wesson / CZ: Pointman 7, Stainless .45 ACP
    LaserMax, Carbon Fiber Ultra-thin Grips, Milt Sparks VM2, Milt Sparks 1.5" Tapered Gun Belt, Nickel Buckle, Galco Dual Magazine Carrier

    Charles Daly: Field Hunter VR-MC, Semi-Auto 12g

  14. #14
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    Unless you REALLY think you need to carry 2 full size guns, why not look into a Colt Mustang or a 3" Defender ? To me, carrying 2 full size is a bit overkill. I feel carrying more spare magazines is a much better option.
    2 full size guns are gonna weight ya down and be a real pain in the butt. Just my 2 cents, but try as suggested. carry 2 around the house or such.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trade_Sniper
    I have thought about this. As I said, it can't be a tremendous difference from what I have now. I already have one gun a 3:30-4:00 and a dual mag carrier with two full mags located in the same spot on the other hip,

    I didn't realize how much different it would actually be, for me anyway. When I started wearing around the house, it was SOB, right at 6:00 with a healthy cant toward my strong side for easier draw angle. When I started regular carry, I went to 3:30-4:00 IWB, right behind the hip bone to reduce the amount of width it added to me. This change was brought about swiftley after my afore mentined pains.

    Everyone is different, and what works for some will not work for all.

    Give it a try before you invest in a lot of money, When getting a holster to use, several out their are reversable, so if you decide to go with the 3:30-4:00 and 7:00-8:30 for a mirror setup you can try out the left hand carry for fit and function without having to buy a dedicated left hand holster.

    FWIW,

    Just some ideas.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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