Strictly Point Shooting Technique Comments

This is a discussion on Strictly Point Shooting Technique Comments within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I truly enjoyed the beginnings of a recent thread that was closed by administrators on point shooting. I am a novice firearm owner and user ...

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Thread: Strictly Point Shooting Technique Comments

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Strictly Point Shooting Technique Comments

    I truly enjoyed the beginnings of a recent thread that was closed by administrators on point shooting. I am a novice firearm owner and user and, for my preferred 380, a Kel P3AT, it became obvious that point shooting was what this gun was made for and what would make me a better user of it. There are some experienced forum members out there who seemed to get a little "personal" causing the administrators to close the thread. Hoping that this new thread will put this subject back on track as long as we stick to the hows and whys of point shooting and none of the "other stuff".
    My last practice at this technique (with a 380 and a 642 38 spl) was at about 5-6 yards and all of my shots were within body mass over a 6 inch wide by 1 foot long oval. Not great but they were all in body mass. My target is set so that its entirety represents my body mass shoulder to shoulder wide and shoulder to hip in length. I still think my lack of closer shot placement is my lack of practice and a tendency to jerk the firearm and being strong right arm. I am trying to work on grip and trigger squeeze. I also have found that my point aim sight is about 2 inches to left of my dominant eye sight. Any comments on this big tirade?

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Try pulling the trigger by convulsing the entire hand.
    Your grip should be very tight when doing this.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Some of this may just be the pistol you're using. Whether point shooting or sighted fire, small guns are still more difficult to shoot. The Kel-Tec doesn't give you a whole lot to hold on to. With such a small grip, it's easy to shove, pull, or jerk the gun off line as you pull the trigger.

    Are you doing this shooting in point shoulder (arm straight, gun up just below eye level) or lower down in 3/4 or half hip (elbow bent with the gun quite a ways below your line of sight)? Both are useful skill sets, but the accuracy you can expect varies depending on which method you use.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey blackeagle: Thanks in advance for the reply. Hopefully others will follow suit and we can resurrect an good discussion of point shooting. Per your points, I tried something akin to hip point shooting and was uncomfortable with it as a novice. I'm staying with the more typical outstretched arm point shoot. If I improve to the point that I consider decent (and what would you consider decent at say 5-6 yds?) I would probably try a little more of the hip method, which gives you even more of a fraction of a second and "shields" your arm and firearm from the aggressor. I understand your point of the small grip but there are people out there who still can do wonders and I just want to approach their abilities. My 38 has the larger grips that are quite substantial and accuracy seemingly is not any different from the 3AT, although I cannot be sure from my look at the target holes.

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    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    My last practice at this technique (with a 380 and a 642 38 spl) was at about 5-6 yards and all of my shots were within body mass over a 6 inch wide by 1 foot long oval. Not great but they were all in body mass.
    Not bad shooting, BG would be going down for the count. Strong focus on the target is key for me to hit good groupings. Also I find point shooting on the move brings the shots in closer together. Starting out it took me about 300 rounds to get a good grip on the technique, been practicing & training regularly.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I truly enjoyed the beginnings of a recent thread that was closed by administrators on point shooting. I am a novice firearm owner and user and, for my preferred 380, a Kel P3AT, it became obvious that point shooting was what this gun was made for and what would make me a better user of it. There are some experienced forum members out there who seemed to get a little "personal" causing the administrators to close the thread. Hoping that this new thread will put this subject back on track as long as we stick to the hows and whys of point shooting and none of the "other stuff".
    My last practice at this technique (with a 380 and a 642 38 spl) was at about 5-6 yards and all of my shots were within body mass over a 6 inch wide by 1 foot long oval. Not great but they were all in body mass. My target is set so that its entirety represents my body mass shoulder to shoulder wide and shoulder to hip in length. I still think my lack of closer shot placement is my lack of practice and a tendency to jerk the firearm and being strong right arm. I am trying to work on grip and trigger squeeze. I also have found that my point aim sight is about 2 inches to left of my dominant eye sight. Any comments on this big tirade?
    The most common mistake with people new to point shooting is that they bite off more than they can chew. One thing to keep in mind......keep absolute control of your confidence. Start off close and achieve absolute success before you move back.

    When it comes to point shooting practice there should be two variations used each time out. The first method should be the basic geomety of "parallel to the ground." That is your "known default" which puts the hits low in retention based point shooting.

    The second method is "eye/hand" coordination of putting the hits right where you are looking. Quality eye/hand coordination comes out of know default of parallel to the ground.

    If you want to own point shooting it will require some more work. This work needs to be done correctly. Crawl/walk/run while keeping complete control of your confidence.

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    Member Array beni's Avatar
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    Kelcarry,
    Which range do you use to practice your point shooting?

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    How are you gripping the .38?
    I watched one of the CPL instructor while he he was practicing today and payed attention to how he was holding his gun.
    Went out on the range and held mine up higher than I normally do, as high in the hand and very level with my hand and arm, just st the very edge of the backstrap so as not to get pinched by the hammer, and found I was much more accurate. it seemed that tiny bit, less than 1/4 inch made a considerable difference both point shooting and using the almost invisible sights.
    This video shows what I mean about grip:
    http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/s...manhJ0KNWQYqM4
    I had a few shots way left of what I consider acceptable for myself and payed even more attention to finger on the trigger. When I got home I took off the trigger shoe that had been on the gun since I bought. I had been thinking of taking it off anyway since it feel considerably different in the hand than my other revolvers that don't have one. Next trip to the range will tell if that makes even more improvement, but I have a feeling it will help.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey blackeagle: Thanks in advance for the reply. Hopefully others will follow suit and we can resurrect an good discussion of point shooting. Per your points, I tried something akin to hip point shooting and was uncomfortable with it as a novice. I'm staying with the more typical outstretched arm point shoot. If I improve to the point that I consider decent (and what would you consider decent at say 5-6 yds?) I would probably try a little more of the hip method, which gives you even more of a fraction of a second and "shields" your arm and firearm from the aggressor. I understand your point of the small grip but there are people out there who still can do wonders and I just want to approach their abilities. My 38 has the larger grips that are quite substantial and accuracy seemingly is not any different from the 3AT, although I cannot be sure from my look at the target holes.
    Keep your 1/2 hip to 2-3 yrds in the beginning. As Matt mentioned, your grip should be tight, known as the convulsive grip by many.

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  11. #10
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    I've taken Brownie's point shooting course and I have the P-3AT as an extra gun.
    His course had us firing 1400-1500 rounds in two days to begin to develop some muscle memory.
    Now using my Kimber or Glock, this was a great course and gave me plenty to work on at the range.
    I'm not sure that I could use the P-3AT for that many rounds and not need 'emergency treatment' for a destroyed index finger.

    Point shooting is exactly the skill one needs to develop for 'WalMart parking lot' problems...close up, you'll never even be thinking about your sights, lasers, or full arm extensions...OMOYMV

    Hey Brownie...how's it going?
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    retsupt99,

    It's going very well thank you, hope the same for you and yours.

    I'll be back in Fla for another pistol course near Daytona in three weeks.

    Involved with starting up a new gun shop out here 9 weeks ago [ www.thegundepot.com ] and that's been going well also. The business model is 50.00 over cost on every gun over 300.00 and 35.00 over cost on guns under that figure. The new shop is a perfect venue to pull students from

    Between the training courses and the shop, I'm back to 7 days a week on the go all the time again but life couldn't be better sir. Don't hesitate to call if you're looking for something I might be able to help you with.

    Stay sharp out there
    The mind is the limiting factor

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  13. #12
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    retsupt99,

    It's going very well thank you, hope the same for you and yours.

    I'll be back in Fla for another pistol course near Daytona in three weeks.

    Involved with starting up a new gun shop out here 9 weeks ago [ The Gun Depot - Guns - Ammo - Knives - ] and that's been going well also. The business model is 50.00 over cost on every gun over 300.00 and 35.00 over cost on guns under that figure. The new shop is a perfect venue to pull students from

    Between the training courses and the shop, I'm back to 7 days a week on the go all the time again but life couldn't be better sir. Don't hesitate to call if you're looking for something I might be able to help you with.

    Stay sharp out there
    Let us not forget our ( 7677, you and I) combined course next winter in AZ.
    I can almost feel the heat..

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    When it comes to point shooting practice there should be two variations used each time out. The first method should be the basic geomety of "parallel to the ground." That is your "known default" which puts the hits low in retention based point shooting.

    The second method is "eye/hand" coordination of putting the hits right where you are looking. Quality eye/hand coordination comes out of know default of parallel to the ground.
    Great info! I have been working on it a bit. It's been my main practice at the range the last month or so. Just got tired of punching holes with 9mm, seems like a waste. And wanted to do something more useful. Generally, my first two shots out of the holster are with a pretty level hand and tend to hit low. It never worried me much as I saw that as a way to slow down an aggressor and take control of the situation. Then follow it up with arms out- sighted or point shooting.

    I never really thought of them as 2 different ways to shoot though. Might have to change my focus a bit and get the parallel shooting dialed in first. Gonna focus on that now. Thanks for the info!

    On another note. The confidence I have built with the point shooting from the hip has transferred to confidence on rapid fire shooting. I guess mentally I have convinced myself that if I can hit the target from the hip I can definitely hit it rapid fire with extended arms. I am less focused on getting great site alignment and more focused on timing my trigger pulls and trusting that putting the front site on target will get the bullet there at close range. I won't claim any one ragged hole groups. But I am putting rounds into the BG target every time.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey guys: Really appreciate that this new thread seems to have a new home for point shooting. I think it is a very important aspect of defensive carry and that is really what this forum is all about. PULEEZE--stay out of the 'personal stuff" that got the original thread pulled.
    Hey beni:I go about every other week with 2 or 3 neighbors to ATP Gunshop in Summerville. It is off of College Park Rd about 3 miles north of Rt 26. Great place--lot of supplies, guns and 18 shooting lanes that are a/c for summer. You can shoot literally everything there--they even will rent you an AK or an UZI if you have the money to buy ammo (their ammo when you rent).

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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    On another note. The confidence I have built with the point shooting from the hip has transferred to confidence on rapid fire shooting. I guess mentally I have convinced myself that if I can hit the target from the hip I can definitely hit it rapid fire with extended arms. I am less focused on getting great site alignment and more focused on timing my trigger pulls and trusting that putting the front site on target will get the bullet there at close range. I won't claim any one ragged hole groups. But I am putting rounds into the BG target every time.
    The Grip/Trigger Continuum


    From my experience the grip/trigger continuum varies seamlessly from my long range precision grip, to my mid range standard marksmanship grip, to my "behind in the reactionary curve" combat shooting convulsive grip, to my "OH NO!" death grip.

    Each section of the continuum has its perfect grip that gives you the very best accuracy, with the very best speed on the trigger (recoil control.) That is in line with the physiological response dictated by the urgency and distance of the encounter.

    What is nice is that when I have time the body knows it and gives me a marksmanship grip. When I do not have time the body knows it and gives me a combat grip.......and it is a seamless continuum.
    The very best way to look at the grip/trigger continuum is from the typical physiological effects of a life threatening encounter. Distance equals time....time equals urgency.....urgency equals the level of activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) of the fight or flight response.

    It is the SNS that will dictate how tightly you will grip the gun and how hard and fast you will work the trigger.

    What is very cool is how well these varying physiological effects work with what is the very best solution to the problem. We are talking about a very natural, instinctive, and reflexive "sliding scale" approach here.

    If the urgency is very high (due to distance and time,) the more we are physiologically likely to crush the gun and work the trigger hard and fast. This in perfectly in line with the combat proven "convulsive grip" and perfectly in line with the balance of speed and accuracy that is necessary for the specifics of the encounter.

    As we gain distance and time incrementally, we lose urgency incrementally. We lose the physiological desire to crush the gun and work the trigger fast and hard incrementally. We begin to shift "the balance of speed and accuracy" more towards the accuracy portion of the equation incrementally. The grip lightens and the trigger is worked with more finesse incrementally.

    This is a seamless "sliding scale" approach that allows us to be the very best that we can be from one inch to two hundred yards.

    And it fits perfectly into what is natural, instinctive, and reflexive.
    To me the grip is all about the speed on the trigger. When we connect the "distance" to the "urgency" it is clear that the closer you are the faster you are going to want to be on the trigger. The faster you are going to want to be on the trigger, the more recoil control you are going to need.

    For a precision shot at distance all I want is that "one perfect shot." Now I may string a few of "the one perfect shot" together, but it is not about being fast and accurate. It is all about being accurate. Recoil control is low priority compared to trigger control. Relax, focus on the front sight, and prrrreeesss.

    At mid range we are looking for that perfect balance of speed and accuracy. We are looking to get back on the sights as quickly as we can, as we recover from recoil. The grip tension is what gives us our quick “sighted shooting” follow through.

    When behind in the reactionary curve and the activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System, the physiological response is to squeeze the gun tighter (convulsive grip) than we do on the range. This is perfect because we need excellent recoil control and the extremely quick point shooters follow through due to the higher urgency.

    Way behind in the reactionary curve with extreme activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System. Death grip on the gun....working the trigger as fast as you can.....making the gun “sound like a machine gun.” The recoil control and the point shooters follow through comes out of the death grip.

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