Front Sight Firearms Training In Nevada

This is a discussion on Front Sight Firearms Training In Nevada within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Trust me when I say that stating how I really feel about FS isn't consistent with forum rules. I agree, it can and probably should ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    Trust me when I say that stating how I really feel about FS isn't consistent with forum rules.

    I agree, it can and probably should be used as a training aid, that he not only used it for marketing reasons, and then couldn't even acknowledge his mistake, publicly insulting those who took offense at his actions should be a clue as to the quality of his school.

    This of course is a wholly separate issue from the abject mediocrity of FS pedagogy. They give people a false impression of competency and when I've shot with those who were trained with FS, I've had to do a whole bunch of remediation. In turn the FS alumnus is usually appalled once he/she is shown the proper way.

    I don't care who a shooter goes to train with, usually any training is better than none. While there are 1 or 2 schools that I tell people to shy away from. FS is the only one that I'm adamant about. When I explain why, people are invariably grateful as they were shooting neophytes and had no idea.

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  3. #47
    Member Array Sharkman's Avatar
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    I would not give Mr Pizza a dime either and BTW when he gets your email address beware of the spam ...... If he goes under I am sure some other training facility will pick up the instructors if there are as good as everyone is saying so no loss just a different company under a different name.
    Son remeber this and you will go far ........

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  4. #48
    New Member Array sbmitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    This of course is a wholly separate issue from the abject mediocrity of FS pedagogy. They give people a false impression of competency and when I've shot with those who were trained with FS, I've had to do a whole bunch of remediation. In turn the FS alumnus is usually appalled once he/she is shown the proper way.
    Each school has their own "right" way to do things it seems. Our FS Range Master, Bill M. was a 17 year combat Marine vet and competitive shooter. Four of the other seven instructors were also combat veterans. Bill explained that FS uses a particular method (including a modified Weaver stance and isometric grip, etc) but that's just one method. He never bad mouthed other schools or methods. Instead he encouraged people to go to other schools and learn from a variety of instructors.

    I totally understand people's negative impressions of FS from the endless spam, ridiculous stream of "amazing" offers and some of Piazza's other marketing tactics. However so far I haven't heard much in the way of negative reports from anyone who has actually attended a class during the past 3-5 years.

    I'm not expecting everyone who shares here to be blowing sunshine out their butt and spitting lolly pops, but it's easy to make sweeping statements about how bad their training when you've never experienced it first hand.

    Forming your opinion about an entire training system based on a few people you've seen who have been there once and maybe didn't even graduate doesn't seem like a sufficient sample. That is like picking an apple up off the ground, finding it half rotten and hosting a worm then telling everyone the tree in your yard and every tree of that variety produces rotten apples. There's more to the story.

    GutshotJohn, would you be willing to start a thread and expand on the proper way to train and the shooting techniques to use? I would love to read about that based on your life experience. If you have any youtube videos posted where you show people the correct way to do things, please include those videos so we can see your method in action.

    The people I see leaving Frontsight have muscle memory and gun handling patterns that should prevent them from shooting themselves or innocent people. They have had the fundamentals of sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control ingrained them. They also have been reminded constantly how to go home and safely and effectively do dry practice. Graduates can clear type 1-2-3 malfunctions in about 2 seconds and draw from the holster and put 2 rounds inside the thoracic cavity from up to 30 feet in under 2 seconds...and more. I accept the fact that is by no means "complete" training but it's 4 days well spent in my opinion.

    Would I pay $2K for a class? Nope. Would I spend $1200 in travel expenses and a few hundred bucks on a lifetime membership? Already did and I don't regret it. If you think it's a waste of money, don't go. There are plenty of other schools around the country.
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  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    sbmitt, welcome to the fourm. You will find there are people who will make all kinds of claims and in most cases the have no idea what they are talking about. But you can big boy talk and degrade people on the web and puff out your chest and say boy I told him. Some guys just like to lurk around and flame on people. I have also found that "Thier Training" is always better than the training you got. You know how boys will play mines bigger than yours.

    My wife and I took the 4 DDHG class last March and had a great time. My wife came away with confidence which was one of my objectives or the training, now she wants to go back. I have trained at another place in Colorado fired fewer rounds and the class was not nearly as well organized. I have watched videos from Gunsite Academy and they teach the same techniques with a few differences. We bought memberships at Front Sight and plan to make yearly trips. I suspect my wife will take the 4 DDHG class multiple time as I will, but I also plan to take the advanced HG training along with the shotgun and rifle.

    I think a lot of depends on your attitude and if you are teachable. I have a friend who like me is a former Marine, I became an engineer he went into the security business and is now in Afghanistan protecting diplomates. His training is so far beyond me, but the same basics are what he learned. He has spent countless hours on the range and in dry practice anyway my point is I doubt he would learn new stuff at Front Sight. For guys like me I think I can learn a lot, one big difference between the military training and civilian training is in the military you are in condition red with guns drawn at the ready. I had no training from the holster it should have already been in your hand, unless you were transitioning from rifle to handgun.

    Anyway welcome to the fourm, keep your powder dry, and don't worry about some of these guys.

    Semper Fi

  6. #50
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbmitt View Post
    Each school has their own "right" way to do things it seems. Our FS Range Master, Bill M. was a 17 year combat Marine vet and competitive shooter. Four of the other seven instructors were also combat veterans. Bill explained that FS uses a particular method (including a modified Weaver stance and isometric grip, etc) but that's just one method. He never bad mouthed other schools or methods. Instead he encouraged people to go to other schools and learn from a variety of instructors.
    When I was a corpsman who served with the Marines, I shot expert with both pistol and rifle. I found out later that I didn't know diddly about shooting. While I applaud your instructors service, I don't look at a Marine as some sort of fount of firearms training wisdom. I know it's hard for the noob to understand but being a vet, doesn't make you a great shot anymore than it makes you qualified to teach. I can put you in touch with numbers USMC vets, some excellent instructors, who will tell you the exact same thing.

    That said I've trained and been taught by guys who served with CAG. If you're going to tell me that they don't know much about shooting, or that your Marine vet knows more than they do, well than you don't know what CAG is. That said, most of the bona fide shooting schools I've been too, the Delta guys among others invariably say they teach "A way, not THE way". So anyone who says that every shooting school teaches "one right way" to do something is flat wrong.

    I totally understand people's negative impressions of FS from the endless spam, ridiculous stream of "amazing" offers and some of Piazza's other marketing tactics. However so far I haven't heard much in the way of negative reports from anyone who has actually attended a class during the past 3-5 years.
    The incident with marketing the death of a police officer occurred in 2010. To my knowledge he has never repented, and he personally insulted me when I called him on his horsepuckey. Sorry but that dog don't hunt.

    Forming your opinion about an entire training system based on a few people you've seen who have been there once and maybe didn't even graduate doesn't seem like a sufficient sample. That is like picking an apple up off the ground, finding it half rotten and hosting a worm then telling everyone the tree in your yard and every tree of that variety produces rotten apples. There's more to the story.
    And you would be wrong. I've never seen anyone who knows about shooting who's come back from FS and said "man that was awesome" or "I learned this cool new technique that changes everything." The only people that seem to think that are people who have NEVER been to another school and therefore don't know what they're talking about.

    GutshotJohn, would you be willing to start a thread and expand on the proper way to train and the shooting techniques to use? I would love to read about that based on your life experience. If you have any youtube videos posted where you show people the correct way to do things, please include those videos so we can see your method in action.
    The proper way to train is to find instructors who have a respected reputation, who have clearly established bona fides that makes them qualified to teach and then GO TO MORE THAN ONE OF THEM. I offer no special enlightenment or shortcuts to proper training. Anyone who says they do is selling you something.

    Proper instruction costs money, it costs time, it costs effort and then you have to practice what you've learned. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS and there is no way of doing it on the cheap. Firearms schools are like restaurants, they ARE NOT made equally. That was the point about McDonald's. If you want a quality instructor, you pay for it. If you want McDonald's...well you might like big macs, but it ain't filet mignon. Personally I've learned to shoot to save my life if it comes to that. Training on "the cheap" is not the way I approach firearms.

    How much is your life worth? $2K seems cheap at twice the price.That said most QUALITY firearms instructors charge about $200-250/day so you don't have to spend anywhere near that much.

    But hey if you're happy giving your money to a man of dubious character and history, that's on you. I tried to warn you, take it for what it's worth.

  7. #51
    Member Array Nutrodoc's Avatar
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    My wife and I attended FS last April and had a great experience. You can refuse to believe it if you like, but we did have one active duty Marine and a couple of police officers in our class. The first two days is very basic to accommodate the new people, but the second 2 days provides a lot of fun for everyone. I am a former police officer with a reasonable amount of training and experience with handguns. I have trained with other instructors at other schools. My wife had almost no training or experience. The instructors at FS did an excellent job of working with this wide range of experience. By the end of the four days, she was handling her pistol with confidence and competence. The exercises and competition on day 4 were fun and challenging for all of us.

    Front Sight is not trying to create civilian operators. The stated purpose is to help citizens achieve "the comfort of skill at arms". They are not training you for "Top Shot" or to handle multiple assailants during a bank robbery. There are courses that do cover that sort of thing and I've trained with some of them. They are fun and I've learned a lot. I've learned to shoot on the move. I've done force-on-force, shooting from difficult positions, weak hand shooting, reloading, malfunction clearing, etc. and it was great. But that's not the purpose of the 4-day at FS. Considering the wide range of experience in each class, the progress each student makes is quite impressive. If a student is not challenged and breezes through the competence evaluation, they can move on to more advanced training.

    By the way, at no time did any range master or instructor say that the way they were teaching is the only way. They just asked that we try it their way for the first two days and then decide whether to stay with it or do it some other way.

    Also, my lifetime Diamond membership which allows me to take any course they offer as many times as I want for the rest of my life and a 40% discount at the pro-shop cost me $250, not $2K. If I never went back, my 4-day course for $250 was a real bargain. I'm going back in April, so that makes each 4-day course cost me $125 (just over $30 per day). Each time I go, the cost per course gets smaller. Yes, I realize that if the company ever goes out of business, my life-time membership has a short life, but I've already gotten far more value than the cost of my membership.

    And anyone who doesn't like the volume of advertising just has to click a link or push a number on the phone and it all stops. I can only speak for me and my wife (with her permission, of course), but we had a blast and learned a lot. It has worked out very well for us. I didn't mean to sound like a spokesman for FS - I'm not. It's just that I get a little tired of all the negativity. We liked it a lot.
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  8. #52
    New Member Array sbmitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutrodoc View Post
    My wife had almost no training or experience. The instructors at FS did an excellent job of working with this wide range of experience. By the end of the four days, she was handling her pistol with confidence and competence.
    I was so proud when my wife made it to round 4 in the man-on-man competition our second time through. She's a strong-willed gal so me training her doesn't go that well, even after 18 years of marriage....it was great to see her learning the skills...from someone else.

    Now she's carrying her Glock 19 in a nice Roma gun bag, and I have no doubt she can clear a malfunction if she has to, but mostly that she can put 2 rounds in a target if her life depended on it. We're headed back 3/30-31 4/1-2. I hope to see you there Nutrodoc. The fact that it doesn't cost $150-200/day is amazing. We're blessed to have Diamond memberships and I'm picking up a few extra for friends.

  9. #53
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    Gents as I have stated not knocking their instructors and if you went and had a good time and learn something great keep going back as often as you can.

    Any training is good training as long as in the end you can figure out what works for you and leave the rest alone.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #54
    New Member Array sbmitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Gents as I have stated not knocking their instructors
    I don't think anyone is responding to your posts regarding the trainers. You clearly articulated your issues with Piazza, but others are bashing the training without having been there.

    Nutrodoc nailed it:
    Front Sight is not trying to create civilian operators. The stated purpose is to help citizens achieve "the comfort of skill at arms". ...... Considering the wide range of experience in each class, the progress each student makes is quite impressive.
    If TEOTWAWKI comes, we'll be on the same side of law and order.

    Gun sales are setting records and FBI stats for Jan-Jun-2011 say all classes of violent crime are down.

    The more we can arm and train responsible Americans, the better in my opinion.
    If Piazza's insane marketing helps 50,000+ people per year develop a decent level of gun competence, he has served his purpose in life. Some of them will take it to the next level at Frontsight or in other great schools around the country.

    It's all good my friend.
    Last edited by sbmitt; December 29th, 2011 at 05:34 AM.

  11. #55
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    I don't need to go to a place to know whether is something is a good school. I can judge a place by the quality of student it puts out. I never went to Harvard, but I'm pretty sure it's a damn good school. EVERY student I've ever seen who's trained at FS, is a study in mediocre training. None of the best shooters I know have good opinion about FS. I don't need to go to a restaurant to know I don't want to eat there. Reputation matters.

    Factor in that reputation for shady dealings, and morally repugnant business practices such as using the death of a police officer to market his training school, and I have all the information I need to rate it as a "no-go".

    Your money however is your money but let's not pretend that all training is equal or that I need to give that jerk a dime of mine in order to have a valid opinion about his school.

  12. #56
    New Member Array sbmitt's Avatar
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    GutshotJohn,
    You have made your case. Would you be willing to allow those of us who like attending Frontsight's mediocre training share our stories on this thread without bashing it further? I support your free speech, but would you consider starting a "Frontsight Sucks" thread or something where you can dump all over it as much as you want?
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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbmitt View Post
    GutshotJohn,
    You have made your case. Would you be willing to allow those of us who like attending Frontsight's mediocre training share our stories on this thread without bashing it further? I support your free speech, but would you consider starting a "Frontsight Sucks" thread or something where you can dump all over it as much as you want?
    Yes please.

  14. #58
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    By all means though I think that in order to make an educated choice people should be aware of everything about the school. I have neither endorsed or recommended that people attend any school, but it strikes me as problematic to endorse a school, especially one of dubious reputation, without a decent understanding of what other schools offer. You will also notice that I'm not the only skeptic of FS, their practices, or their methods in this thread.

    You're assuming that because I'm criticizing the school that I'm also bashing you. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You critiqued my criticism and I replied. You have made an emotional investment in FS and therefore any such critique is viewed as bashing.

    I applaud you for your efforts to seek training. I would encourage you to continue that endeavor but expand your horizons to other, more reputable, shooting schools. I guarantee that once you do you will come to the same conclusion.

    You have a right to share your opinions. I have a right to share mine.

  15. #59
    New Member Array sbmitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    You have a right to share your opinions. I have a right to share mine.
    You have clearly state your case for why you believe people should not attend Frontsight. Please do not post on this thread further unless you have something NEW to say. There are thousands of people who like the experience they have had at Frontsight and believe they received a good value for their training investment. I attended with a group of 8 people last time, and will be returning with at least 10 more at the end of March. If you succeed in persuading some not to attend FS, that doesn't bother me a bit. However, having been there, you're not going to deter me from attending once or twice per year until the end of life as we know it.
    Last edited by JD; December 31st, 2011 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Will address via PM later.

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