Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah
This is a discussion on Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Since most of my students train with me using open hand, stick, and knife as well as pistol they are not usually worried about hurting ...
April 27th, 2010 09:44 PM
Since most of my students train with me using open hand, stick, and knife as well as pistol they are not usually worried about hurting each other.
So we are still using a technique that as far as we know worked one time on another continent decades ago?
April 27th, 2010 09:56 PM
"Is the "pro way" has been two to the chest and one to the head for all these years where is the supporting documentation that it really happens that way.
1) That people report during a shooting people make a conscious decision to target the head."
I have no way of knowing how often or how long or how extensively the technique was used in Mozambique.
That is just as much of the actual history of the Mozambique Drill that I remember so I thought I would add it.
Other members may care to elaborate further.
April 27th, 2010 10:23 PM
I am REALLY straining my brain here and this is all just to the best of my recollection.
The Mozambique or "Failure Drill" was also termed the "Mogadishu Drill" or just "The Mogadishu" (which was originally developed for a different type of shooting scenario in the late 70s) AKA with "The Mogadishu" it was assumed that the perps would likely be body armored.
So...two shots were quickly placed placed COM (the largest body mass area) with the assumption that the bad guy would falter after two COM hits (even though BPVed) enough for a more carefully aimed killing shot to then be taken to the head.
To my knowledge there was no "stop & reassess" BS in the Mogadishu.
I suspect that bastardization or variation of the Mogadishu belongs to either Cooper or Rousseau .
It was "punch" the body armored assailent with two quickie COM...make him falter/stumble...and then take the aimed head shot.
So...for sure that is not something that would happen in airsoft training.
Again...other members - correct me if I've stated anything that is factually incorrect.
April 27th, 2010 10:24 PM
I have taken FOF or taught FOF with simunitions and/or airsoft for over 10 years and I have yet to be hit in the groin. However, I had a penny for everytime I was hit in the hand I would be a rich man.
I agree with Blackeagle as I have seen more then my share of head shoots too. Blackeagle maybe on to something with the manner the student is being taught which is the difference between what we are both seeing.
I believe in and teach drawing the weapon and zippering up the body with 3 or 4 shots and ending with with additional 2 shots to the head all in one smooth draw stroke in under 2 seconds.
April 27th, 2010 10:47 PM
I've trained both ways....2 COM..1 Head and the most recent formal training, I trained to "zipper" my shots. First shot was as I was presenting the weapon and then zippered upward. I think if one has time to site, then COM is a reasonable assumption...BUT in a do or die reactionary shootout, I think the most likely is "zipper"... JMO
Originally Posted by 7677
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
April 27th, 2010 11:18 PM
COM HITS are realistic. Shoot till the threat is neutralized. I'm still waiting to go to that elusive "Pistol Sniper" School!
April 27th, 2010 11:29 PM
A portion of all training will translate, insofar as it creates repeatable skills and attempts to simulate the situational characteristics ... ie, moving target, target shooting back, target taking cover, multiple targets shooting back, inability to find cover, inability to use an arm or leg, etc. The more training that can incorporate these types of realistic elements, and the more frequent such dynamic, high-intensity training is done, the better it should translate. Just like anything else similarly trained for.
Originally Posted by mercop
But, sitting on a line with 50 people, will much translate to practicable skills in a firefight? Not much at all, you're right.
April 27th, 2010 11:38 PM
I agree, that a lot of folks talk it, but I haven't met one of them that 1) has ever been in a real situation , and 2) anyone who has done it in a real situation.
April 27th, 2010 11:46 PM
I have, though without firearms in the mix. I'm sure that many here have, as well.
Originally Posted by Eagleks
Situations are only somewhat similar to what you train for. It's the nature of dynamic, fluid, violent situations. Each one is different. And depending on the type of skills and training the aggressor (opponent) has had, a given situation is going to spin off into an ugly direction that's nearly impossible to predict. I'm sure that firearms attacks are much the same. There's little reason to presume they'd be any more predictable than any other violent attack.
The scores of reports (after-action reviews) that I've read all seem to back this up, that each situation is highly unique and unpredictable, with all sorts of unexpected challenges.
Adapt quickly, or you're toast. It's true in attacks without firearms, in my experience, and from what I've read and heard it's much the same when a firearm or knife is involved.
April 28th, 2010 12:04 AM
I've been hit in the groin more than a few times. Twice in less than a second, on one memorable occasion. I've been hit in the hands quite a lot. Neither is pleasant.
Originally Posted by 7677
April 28th, 2010 12:25 AM
If you read about Jim Cirillo, the New York police detective and survivor of numerous documented gunfights, you will find he made some headshots during the many battles he was involved in; in fact one of his most discussed encounters has been covered by Massad Ayoob. Cirillo used a .38 special to make headshots at a reported distance of 25 feet? It all boils down to practice, practice and more practice. I do agree with groin shots, a broken pelvis will absolutely take someone down, and if you are lucky enough to hit a vein or artery traversing the pelvic area, the fight will end very quickly.
I remember years ago a co-worker of mine had called his foreman to tell him he had wounded a trophy buck, and was going to finish him off with his .22 caliber pistol and he would be in tomorrow morning. No one heard from him after that. In the morning his foreman called home and was told that he never returned; his wife thought that he had driven straight to work. His foreman knew where his lease was so they went down to look for him, finding his body collapsed a few feet from his truck. Next to the deer he had killed was the ruger .22 caliber revolver he was going to use to finish the wounded animal. apparently he had drawn the pistol and in the process shot himself in the groin, and as the round fragmented after hitting the pelvic bone, it rebounded off the bone and severed his femoral artery and he bled to death trying to get back to his truck.....
So by all means, hit them wherever you can....
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
April 28th, 2010 02:36 AM
LOL!!! I imagine I'll be doing the "I messed myself" dance trying to shake one loose from the bottom of my pants leg. Let's face it: first you say it, then you do it.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
April 28th, 2010 10:01 AM
Here is the thing that I think too many trainers forget-
I have been in a few scrapes ranging from trigger pulling to defending open handed against edged weapons. I am a realist and chalk the most of it up to being aware and having tons of luck. Because something works for me one time under stress does not mean that I am going to try to make it my "secret move", or even worse commercially teach it. That said I am not going to take what someone else was able to do in a situation that I was not involved in and teach it commercially as a "secret move".
There are way too many people taking hearsay and war stories as the tactical truth and making it personal doctrine. The worst thing is when someone who knows even less than them comes looking for information on in person or on the net, they are all too happy to share. In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king.
I absolutely do not agree that all training is useful. That is absolute BS. Too many people who believe they are training for the defensive use of a pistol are really only training to shoot a pistol.
Everyone has a nice pretty draw on the buzzer, but when you have them draw in reaction to someone else drawing on them what you get is lots of exaggerated movement. They are all a**holes and elbows. So if even the draw is ate up how do you think the rest of the scenario will play out?
I think that some are confusing a two to the chest and one to the head / failure drills with taking a controlled shot at the bad guys head when you have time, especially from behind cover. I explain it like this, if you have time to take a breath you have time to get on the sights. Problem is that some times it happens too fast.
Here is the question of the day- am I being giving information or am I searching for knowledge?
April 28th, 2010 10:58 AM
of course center mass should be the first target
if they don't go down and are still a threat...IF you have the time to take the head shot then by all means do.....but as everyone has said.....you may not be able to for reasons stated--you better get rounds into them wherever possible
we do drills in our semi-annual quals where we shoot targets and at random the line instructor yells body armor and we have to follow up with something else, usually to the head but we've actually been taught to go for pelvic region also
We do sims FOF and I've been hit mostly in arms/legs/groin, couple times in hands, but most of the time its the previous places. I've never been hit in the head...but that could be for any number of reasons. I have made head shots during scenarios where the "BG" didn't go down, coming at me with knife or didn't go down when I put 4 quick in the chest and the swat actor played the part when I painted his head lol.
I agree that getting ingrained in our head to do the 2 to chest one to head as a catch-all is not good, what needs to be ingrained in us is to shoot center mass and if it fails to stop him, then shoot whatever you can til the threat is stopped-pelvic, groin, leg, head.....
Certified Glock Armorer
"I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?
April 28th, 2010 11:41 AM
Actuatly, it was derived from a defensive shooting in Mozambique.
Originally Posted by Scouse
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Vol. 1, No. 1
"I added The Mozambique Drill to the modern doctrine after hearing of an experience of a student of mine up in Mozambique when that country was abandoned. My friend was involved in the fighting that took place around the airport of Laurenco Marquez. At one point, Mike (Rouseau) turned a corner was confronted by a terrorist carrying an AK47. The man was advancing toward him at a walk at a range of perhaps 10 paces. Mike, who was a good shot, came up with his P35 and planted two satisfactory hits, one on each side of the wishbone. He expected his adversary to drop, but nothing happened, and the man continued to close the range. At this point, our boy quite sensibly opted to go for the head and tried to do so, but he was a little bit upset by this time and mashed slightly on the trigger, catching the terrorist precisely between the collar bones and severing his spinal cord. This stopped the fight."
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow.
End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."
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