Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah - Page 3

Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

This is a discussion on Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Even though the Col intended it as just a drill others have adopted doctrine and mindset from one shooting. I would have just said I ...

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Thread: Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Even though the Col intended it as just a drill others have adopted doctrine and mindset from one shooting. I would have just said I was aiming for the neck...better story:)


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Even though the Col intended it as just a drill.....
    Most people miss that part.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Kinda like the Tueller Drill. That is what every one quotes when they want to show what they don't know about edged weapon survival.- George

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Here is the thing that I think too many trainers forget-

    I have been in a few scrapes ranging from trigger pulling to defending open handed against edged weapons. I am a realist and chalk the most of it up to being aware and having tons of luck. Because something works for me one time under stress does not mean that I am going to try to make it my "secret move", or even worse commercially teach it. That said I am not going to take what someone else was able to do in a situation that I was not involved in and teach it commercially as a "secret move".

    There are way too many people taking hearsay and war stories as the tactical truth and making it personal doctrine. The worst thing is when someone who knows even less than them comes looking for information on in person or on the net, they are all too happy to share. In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king.

    I absolutely do not agree that all training is useful. That is absolute BS. Too many people who believe they are training for the defensive use of a pistol are really only training to shoot a pistol.

    Everyone has a nice pretty draw on the buzzer, but when you have them draw in reaction to someone else drawing on them what you get is lots of exaggerated movement. They are all a**holes and elbows. So if even the draw is ate up how do you think the rest of the scenario will play out?

    I think that some are confusing a two to the chest and one to the head / failure drills with taking a controlled shot at the bad guys head when you have time, especially from behind cover. I explain it like this, if you have time to take a breath you have time to get on the sights. Problem is that some times it happens too fast.

    Here is the question of the day- am I being giving information or am I searching for knowledge?
    George...excellent post and I was going to touch on this on your one handed thread.

    Our society has been taught that the gun is the solution to every problem and when it doesn't magically work they don't know what to do.

    People have forgotten the fight in gun fighting and most classes are exclusively based around marksmanship not fighting. At least 80% of the techniques I teach involve one handed shooting combined with combatives techniques to put the fight back into gun fighting. No more standing around punching nice neat little hole in paper! .
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  5. #35
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    I think that the majority of training for handguns was just like the beginnings of the Karate movement back in the 1950s. Before the wildfire of legally-protected CCW it simply wasn't much of an option for most folks to pack a gun 24/7 without probably getting hassled so it was new and exotic thing for them. People saw the market and met the perceived training needs as established in Hollywood and other media sources. Now, just like the blow that Karate has taken in the intervening years, people are starting to realize often enough for it to be a growing movement that the handgun isn't a magic badguy zapper that solves the problem with one rapid pair to the COM and that there is more to this gunfighting and self-defense thing than they realized.

    You still have your 100% "traditional" guys that are teaching only their perception of Karate-Do instead of focusing on more effective techniques just like you still have your "self-defense shooting schools" still teaching only marksmanship and quick buzzer-to-shot techniques despite the known issues with such instruction when confronted with a fluid and dynamic defensive situation.

    Bound to happen sooner or later and I'm glad that I have so many options available to me now that I've gotten interested in it.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    George...excellent post and I was going to touch on this on your one handed thread.

    Our society has been taught that the gun is the solution to every problem and when it doesn't magically work they don't know what to do.

    People have forgotten the fight in gun fighting and most classes are exclusively based around marksmanship not fighting. At least 80% of the techniques I teach involve one handed shooting combined with combatives techniques to put the fight back into gun fighting. No more standing around punching nice neat little hole in paper! .
    Exactly, I also think that when many think force on force they picture only gun vs gun. We use multiple unarmed attackers, impact weapons, stun guns, and edged weapons. If you get a hand full of t-shirt, drop your gun, or bust you *** moving backwards to "gain distance" we done call time outs. You better do something. - George

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    re: Mercop

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Exactly, I also think that when many think force on force they picture only gun vs gun. We use multiple unarmed attackers, impact weapons, stun guns, and edged weapons. If you get a hand full of t-shirt, drop your gun, or bust you *** moving backwards to "gain distance" we done call time outs. You better do something. - George
    That post makes me want to visit more than ever. Still don't know if I can pull it off; but that has nothing to do with desire.

    Fully agree with this, " I also think that when many think force on force they picture only gun vs gun." Or rather, FOF practice should not be only gun v gun.

    One of the things we play with in my MA class is getting a weapon out (typically a flashlight) while being attacked, perhaps with someone putting a bear hug or choke on you, or otherwise rushing you.

    The typical MA class is focused on dealing with that empty handed whereas an empty hand response might be the first step. The next step is getting to and using some sort of weapon while under pressure of assault.

    You can do a lot of damage with a small flashlight carried in a back pocket if you can get to it. Practicing that would simulate reaching back there for an LCP like gun during the heat of H2H.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    One of my most requested and popular classes is our Combat Pen/Kubaton Course. During which we teach the light as a tool as well. I purposely get people to fixate on something so I can deploy another tool.

    Tools and techniques should be like sharks teeth, if one fails there is another right behind it.- George

  9. #39
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    I stand corrected

    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Actuatly, it was derived from a defensive shooting in Mozambique.Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Vol. 1, No. 1
    The story was told to me by George Hosener, a South African, on a range in Canada. The rounds used would most likely be mil spec hard ball in that incident.

    I just assumed it had happened in SA, he described a hit in the throat, that took out the spine.

  10. #40
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    9mmCCW

    [QUOTE]I have, though without firearms in the mix. I'm sure that many here have, as well.

    Situations are only somewhat similar to what you train for. It's the nature of dynamic, fluid, violent situations. Each one is different. And depending on the type of skills and training the aggressor (opponent) has had, a given situation is going to spin off into an ugly direction that's nearly impossible to predict. I'm sure that firearms attacks are much the same. There's little reason to presume they'd be any more predictable than any other violent attack.

    The scores of reports (after-action reviews) that I've read all seem to back this up, that each situation is highly unique and unpredictable, with all sorts of unexpected challenges.

    Adapt quickly, or you're toast. It's true in attacks without firearms, in my experience, and from what I've read and heard it's much the same when a firearm or knife is involved.
    __________________/QUOTE]

    Working as a Bouncer (Posh term Door Man) in Liverpool UK 1960 to 65 first 4 years at the Cavern Club of Beatles fame, I was in mega fights, most I started, standing waiting to get hit? Not a good tactic, I also got stabbed on two separate occasions.

    Now here is the problem with the PC people who are now walking around with CCW pistols in their belts, they have grown up in the don't hit little Johnny Schools! They have to think "What do I do" Fists/feet or head butts.

    Same with guns, "Will I be OK doing this?" "Will I get charged?" Too late, you are down, how do you teach instant aggressive action is the way to go? better still, you have it or you don't!

    Not sure if I have posted this before, but a nice suited man stepped in to our elevator in Dayton Ohio in 2004, just me and my Wife in it, he looked at me, old bearded white guy (69 YOA then) lovely Indian Lady,
    my Wife, turned towards Pauline, martini glass in hand, and stated "I need a hug" lifted his left foot to start his 6ft journey to my 5'2" Wife, who looked at him, eyes wide.

    I came from behind him, under his left arm, and rammed him into the back wall, on his right, did he ever hit it hard! "Stay away from my Wife, stay there" I said, he did, we left. Did I think? No.

    I might have thought of the bottle and glass face injury's I have seen, maybe not, but he was not going to touch my Wife, period.
    Oh? a gun fight? no, I had my Glock on my belt, this was stop action time, not shoot time.

  11. #41
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    good post Scouse
    good way to add the point..."do what you have to do, with what you have available"
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  12. #42
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Some more thoughts on the subject

    Modern Combative Systems Blog

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse View Post
    The story was told to me by George Hosener, a South African, on a range in Canada. The rounds used would most likely be mil spec hard ball in that incident.

    I just assumed it had happened in SA, he described a hit in the throat, that took out the spine.
    Good point scouse and this just shows that like with most drills we do today the actual meaning behind most of them have been lost and slowly been by what indiviuals want it to be.

    This seems to be a common trend with drills and once they hit main stream they take on a whole new life of their own and quickly do not even resemble the original drill or even convey the message it intended to deliver.

    I have to agree with George the perfect example of that is the Tueller Drill. The sole purpose of the Tueller drill was to prove to the avegage officer that a person with a knife in their hand was a threat within 21 feet.

    The debate the Tueller Drill solved was quite old and officers routinely under estimated individuals with knives while over estimated their own ability to draw and shoot. Not only did they over estimated their ability but the firearm's ability to stop a determined attacker as was later discovered during the Miami shootout.

    The Tueller drill was a wake up call to officers and it proved to them a person with a knife within 21 feet was a threat and to treat them as such.

    Well the Tueller drill took on a life of its own and soon experts and trainers were coming out of the woodwork. Some claimed the 21 feet rule was a absolute. I heard one notable quote that according to the Tueller Rule a person is justified in shooting any person with a knife within 21 feet.

    Other trainers taught techniques called the Tueller drill which were nothing but drills to counter original Tueller Drill which consisted of one person running in a perfectly straight line with a knife while the other person drew their weapon and moved off line. These drill always started at the sound of the whistle and the knife attacker never tracked their opponent.
    IMHO, this took officers from condition green to yellow and back green because the Tueller drill opened their eyes to the threat but the counter Tueller drills that came after the original did not address the real problem but filled a artificially created problem which lead to a false security as if a criminal was ever going to get out a measuring tape, mark a line at 21 feet, line up on it, and say at the whistle may the better man win and then run in a perfectly straight line.
    Last edited by 7677; April 29th, 2010 at 06:10 PM.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  14. #44
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    An interesting test

    Shooter on the range facing down range, pistol holstered, and loaded.

    On the beep the shooter draws and fires.

    Standing behind the shooter, at 5-8-10 yd single, standing individuals.

    When the bang is heard, point at were the runner was when the shot was heard. Fairly active runner? More than 21Ft. Do it twice.

  15. #45
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    See how it changes if you used a light instead of a buzzer. Problem is that no sound could ever justify deadly force. - George

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