Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah - Page 4

Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

This is a discussion on Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mercop See how it changes if you used a light instead of a buzzer. Problem is that no sound could ever justify ...

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 75
  1. #46
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    See how it changes if you used a light instead of a buzzer. Problem is that no sound could ever justify deadly force. - George
    George,
    I agree with you but I'm not sure if I fully understand the purpose behind his drill?

    My biggest beef with most drills is the shooter knows what is going to happen and has time to mentally prepare for the task ahead so it is not a true test of a person's ability but one small step in their training. Crawl...walk...run
    "TOUJOURS PRET"


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,067
    Try tossing a tennis ball. Even when you tell the shooters to draw and fire as soon as they see it many will watch it hit the ground and then draw. It takes the average person .75 seconds to respond. Not only that you can throw the ball between their legs, from either side or whatever, they learn to use their peripheral vision.- George

  3. #48
    Member Array JohnN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Try tossing a tennis ball. Even when you tell the shooters to draw and fire as soon as they see it many will watch it hit the ground and then draw. It takes the average person .75 seconds to respond. Not only that you can throw the ball between their legs, from either side or whatever, they learn to use their peripheral vision.- George
    Working off that visual cue is way more difficult than listening for the buzzer.
    "America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall."

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,067
    It is almost like you have been there:) The funny thing is I don't use timers or time limits but people still act like they are on fire:)

  5. #50
    Member Array Pepsi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    367
    book mark

  6. #51
    VIP Member
    Array 64zebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Panhandle of Texas
    Posts
    6,452
    I had a sim scenario in our academy where I was the responding officer and there were an unknown number of people trespassing in an abandoned office building. My job was to confront and do what needed to be done with the trespassers (easy, no problem).
    Situation completely changed when I entered the "building", as a transient came out of a side room and was walking toward me, no weapon visible. After I verbalized to him and he had taken a couple of steps, a knife in his right hand he was holding behind his leg came into view. As soon as I saw this I was drawing, and on my draw he began running, at this point well within 21ft. I stepped off to the left since it had the most room for me to move and began popping off rounds, put 4 in the chest and he simulated being wounded but still coming at me, but slower, so I put 2 in the face and he went down (and had to reload since we only got 6 per mag).
    It was an eye opener to me at the speed with which a call can change from kicking out some transients to having a knife coming at me and me shooting him as fast and well as I did.
    LEO/CHL
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  7. #52
    Member Array JohnN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    I had a sim scenario in our academy where I was the responding officer and there were an unknown number of people trespassing in an abandoned office building. My job was to confront and do what needed to be done with the trespassers (easy, no problem).
    Situation completely changed when I entered the "building", as a transient came out of a side room and was walking toward me, no weapon visible. After I verbalized to him and he had taken a couple of steps, a knife in his right hand he was holding behind his leg came into view. As soon as I saw this I was drawing, and on my draw he began running, at this point well within 21ft. I stepped off to the left since it had the most room for me to move and began popping off rounds, put 4 in the chest and he simulated being wounded but still coming at me, but slower, so I put 2 in the face and he went down (and had to reload since we only got 6 per mag).
    It was an eye opener to me at the speed with which a call can change from kicking out some transients to having a knife coming at me and me shooting him as fast and well as I did.
    Great job. Did you see your front sight?
    "America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall."

  8. #53
    VIP Member
    Array 64zebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Panhandle of Texas
    Posts
    6,452
    not on the four to the chest, it was fast and furious, it was slide on chest and pull trigger
    on the head shots my eye went to the front sight, don't remember thinking about going to the sight....it just happened
    LEO/CHL
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,067
    Good stuff. Also good on you for seeing the knife. In FEB we presented out Spontaneous Attack Survival for Edged Weapons for Law Enforcement at the Southwest Alabama Police Academy. There were 22 officers there from AL, MS, and FL. None of the officers had received training specific to dealing with edged weapons beyond our out friend the 21 foot rule.

    Edged weapons are interesting that being contact distance weapons they require the attack to be within touching distance. The vast majority of those cut/stabbed report never seeing the weapon. We had this happen during FOF is broad day light with a Blue Rings Box Cutter.

    The reason that I am expanding on this in this thread is for the following reason, as already stated too much FOF centers around gun vs gun. We use open hand threats, impact, edged weapons, and guns. Open hand, impact, and edged threats seem to give people the most problem. There is a need to concentrate on the mechanism of the attack. The issue is that if it their deadly weapon is not a firearm and they intend on killing you they will be very close or moving towards you.

    We say over and over again that if you dump magazine of your favorite ammo in your favorite caliber and the bad guy smashes your head with a hammer or cuts you with a box cutter before he expires, are you and less hit to cut then if you never hit him? When you are being attacked with something other than a firearm you will need to use your other arm to defend yourself, move off line and shoot if you can. What we know about edged weapon attacks both in real life and training is that if your response is to get both hands on your gun and move straight back you are dead because you will be struck/cut while back peddling or fall backwards and then get struck/cut.

    Something that is hard to replicate in training is the chaos of a real situation. We just heard from 64zebra his reactions when responding to a call in uniform with an exposed pistol. How do you think you would do in a parking lot with your wife or kid in tow? Anyone here with kids ever step backward and step on your little ones foot because they are always right up you a$$ and not paying attention. Have you ever drilled to take physical control of another person while addressing a threat. This is not Fight Science (kewl show BTW) but you only get one try. When we started introducing another person into the mix what happened was that the shooter got two hands on the gun and started to engage the threat. Within a few dynamic steps they were separated by their loved one by several yards. Even if they moved off line their loved one was right where they were and often got shot.- George

  10. #55
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,663

    re: Mercop ?? for 64z

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Good stuff. Also good on you for seeing the knife. In FEB we presented out Spontaneous Attack Survival for Edged Weapons for Law Enforcement at the Southwest Alabama Police Academy. There were 22 officers there from AL, MS, and FL. None of the officers had received training specific to dealing with edged weapons beyond our out friend the 21 foot rule.

    Edged weapons are interesting that being contact distance weapons they require the attack to be within touching distance. The vast majority of those cut/stabbed report never seeing the weapon. We had this happen during FOF is broad day light with a Blue Rings Box Cutter.

    The reason that I am expanding on this in this thread is for the following reason, as already stated too much FOF centers around gun vs gun. We use open hand threats, impact, edged weapons, and guns. Open hand, impact, and edged threats seem to give people the most problem. There is a need to concentrate on the mechanism of the attack. The issue is that if it their deadly weapon is not a firearm and they intend on killing you they will be very close or moving towards you.

    We say over and over again that if you dump magazine of your favorite ammo in your favorite caliber and the bad guy smashes your head with a hammer or cuts you with a box cutter before he expires, are you and less hit to cut then if you never hit him? When you are being attacked with something other than a firearm you will need to use your other arm to defend yourself, move off line and shoot if you can. What we know about edged weapon attacks both in real life and training is that if your response is to get both hands on your gun and move straight back you are dead because you will be struck/cut while back peddling or fall backwards and then get struck/cut.

    Something that is hard to replicate in training is the chaos of a real situation. We just heard from 64zebra his reactions when responding to a call in uniform with an exposed pistol. How do you think you would do in a parking lot with your wife or kid in tow? Anyone here with kids ever step backward and step on your little ones foot because they are always right up you a$$ and not paying attention. Have you ever drilled to take physical control of another person while addressing a threat. This is not Fight Science (kewl show BTW) but you only get one try. When we started introducing another person into the mix what happened was that the shooter got two hands on the gun and started to engage the threat. Within a few dynamic steps they were separated by their loved one by several yards. Even if they moved off line their loved one was right where they were and often got shot.- George
    My coming into the discussion from an entirely different perspective, a civilian who has actually never been in any real fight since the age of 8, I realized very early on after receiving my permit that what your wrote here is so true---"When you are being attacked with something other than a firearm you will need to use your other arm to defend yourself, move off line and shoot if you can."

    Not to be awfully repetitive with my prior posts here and to you via pm, I realized that there is a need for training for the up close stuff that differs from draw and two handed shoot. It might be that shoving, kicking, redirecting the opponents momentum, will get you both time and space to then draw and shoot more effectively. In 64 zebra's scenario, having side stepped could he have kicked the attacker in the back end to create some space and time? (I know this was a classroom drill and you needed to respond in a particular way, but I'm asking about options to the lethal shot.)

    I almost always do some drills during my training where one hand is tied up to simulate it being used to push my spouse out of the way or to simulate responding with one arm injured.

    Finally, lest someone get the wrong idea, I am no tough guy and don't think of myself in those terms. I'm not a multi-belt MA guru. My interest in this stuff stems from the fact that on receiving my CHL, and also reading "In The Gravest Extreme," I realized that I needed a wider set of skills. It is tough for an old geezer like me to learn new stuff in general and physical stuff like MA in particular, but it has been rewarding trying. I'm probably if nothing else, at least warding off the day when falls will be my biggest danger by re-learning balance and agility.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    Can't wait for companies to start marketing Kevlar "CUPS"
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    englewood, fl
    Posts
    1,751
    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    I've trained both ways....2 COM..1 Head and the most recent formal training, I trained to "zipper" my shots. First shot was as I was presenting the weapon and then zippered upward. I think if one has time to site, then COM is a reasonable assumption...BUT in a do or die reactionary shootout, I think the most likely is "zipper"... JMO
    agreed....quick and most effective with the first shot coming at half hip on the draw and subsequent shots as the arm extends through 3/4 hip and shoulder point...the final shots landing in the efective neck area or head...

    another possibility being multiple shots from half hip with a bump to the neck or head....the firing position never leaving half hip...effective and quick...especially in close quarters as the gun remains in a retention position...

    the groin or belly shot can be effective in creating a situation where the attacker drops whatever they are holding (fairbanks)...in most instances they lose retention of a weapon when hit in the lower body...then the defender only has an unarmed attacker with momentum to deal with...

    and i fully agree...too many people rely too heavily on the gun as th end all when they have effective other weapons at their disposal including those they may be carrying or ones they can improvise with...

  13. #58
    VIP Member
    Array 64zebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Panhandle of Texas
    Posts
    6,452
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not to be awfully repetitive with my prior posts here and to you via pm, I realized that there is a need for training for the up close stuff that differs from draw and two handed shoot. It might be that shoving, kicking, redirecting the opponents momentum, will get you both time and space to then draw and shoot more effectively. In 64 zebra's scenario, having side stepped could he have kicked the attacker in the back end to create some space and time? (I know this was a classroom drill and you needed to respond in a particular way, but I'm asking about options to the lethal shot.)
    Hopyard, I've done exactly that with a suspect, kicked him in the hip/upper leg area to stop an advance which also spun him around, allowed me to get hands on (he had no weapon at the time). This could be done in other situations also, even if its just to get you a second more to get that gun out or do some other action.
    (I couldn't have kicked the guy in my sim scenario...he 6'3" 260...I would have bounced off lol)
    LEO/CHL
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "I got a touch of hangover bureaucrat, don't push me"
    --G.W. McClintock

    Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
    If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?

  14. #59
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,663

    re: 64z OK THEN :)

    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    Hopyard, I've done exactly that with a suspect, kicked him in the hip/upper leg area to stop an advance which also spun him around, allowed me to get hands on (he had no weapon at the time). This could be done in other situations also, even if its just to get you a second more to get that gun out or do some other action.
    (I couldn't have kicked the guy in my sim scenario...he 6'3" 260...I would have bounced off lol)
    OK THEN (with regard to the training exercise), good you fired before he decided to sit on you after the stabbing.

    Not to change subject, but after you kicked and spun your real-world suspect, what was your next move? What do you mean by "to get hands on?" My inclination might be to run (not an option for you).

    I don't imagine you wanted to be in a wrestling match at that point.
    Did you take him down with an arm bar? Choke (are you allowed?)?

    I'm just trying to learn from your experience.

  15. #60
    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Orlando Florida
    Posts
    237

    Attempt to kill

    I worked on the door of a club in Liverpool UK, part time, full time day job, Thur/Fri/Sat nights.

    After the time we let people in (our story any how) this well dressed, but kind of weird man in his twenty's, was standing at the door, I was on the step, just one (6" or so tall) I was not clued in on his watch on the right wrist, normally a good pointer for a left handed person.

    I had worked a lot of hours that day, not as wide awake as I should have been. My partner had gone down stairs for a couple of cups of tea.

    All of a sudden this yobo snapped a punch at my sternum, except his thumb was pointed forward, I curled my middle back, and caught his left wrist with my right hand. Just after he stuck a home made ice pick in to my right wrist. He was aiming for my sternum!

    I held him tight, he tried to pull back, I ran my left arm, down the inside of his left arm, and bounced his head off the stone wall of the Cavern entrance. We wore steel toe caps on the job, my kick to his head as he went down broke his eye socket, jaw, cheek bone, and 4 teeth. The 60s were hard times in Liverpool.

    The Jeep patrol took him to hospital? They wanted to give me some nice steel bracelets till they were given the sharp, and saw the hole in my wrist. "We will call you with a Court date"

    Never heard any more about that. The River Mersey was only half a mile away.

    Those 5 years helped in my 23 years as a full time firearms Instructor.

    How to watch people.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. AK Chest Rig
    By bal_g23 in forum Related Gear & Equipment
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: February 1st, 2009, 03:07 AM
  2. Chest or Gut?
    By Fenris in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: December 24th, 2008, 07:06 PM
  3. Chest Rigs; do you ever really use one?
    By Gideon in forum Related Gear & Equipment
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: October 27th, 2008, 09:55 PM
  4. Chest holster for J frames...
    By AirMech74 in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: April 5th, 2008, 02:46 PM
  5. Need suggestions for chest holster
    By conservaDude in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: June 8th, 2007, 09:21 PM

Search tags for this page

2 in the chest 1 in the head
,
defensive shooting chest chest head
,

mogadishu drill

,
quote two in the chest and one in the head
,
shooting drill 2 to the chest one to the head
,
the mogadishu drill
,
tueller drill defense carry
,
two in the chest one in the head movie quote
,
two shots to the chest one to the head
,
two to the chest one to the head
,
two to the chest one to the head quotes
,
what does two to the chest one to the head mean?
Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors