Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah - Page 5

Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

This is a discussion on Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Scouse beings up a good point, although not all lefties wear their watches on their right wrist because we know people like you are looking ...

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Thread: Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

  1. #61
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    Scouse beings up a good point, although not all lefties wear their watches on their right wrist because we know people like you are looking it, that the stimulus used as a means to start most training scenarios is not realistic. There is lot more that goes into fighting then what happens after the fight has started.

    Being aware of your surrounding and threat identification are very important skills that are not covered in most training classes. While most students are well versed in marksmanship, most tend to lack the ability to be able to quickly key in to preattack indicators as well as indicators such as is the threat right or left handed, tell tale signs of concealed weapons, and most importantly to always know the location of the threat's hands. The key is to teach the student to pick up the actions of the threat that in most case marks the start of hostilities. To do this student have to rely on their judgment to make the decision.
    Last edited by 7677; May 3rd, 2010 at 07:14 PM.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"


  2. #62
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    And in fact, if they are full blown "scenarios" and not just set up fights ,the practitioner can often negotiate the scenario without pulling his gun if his "pre fight " game is good. The better you are at picking up on the cues of impending assualt and using your head, voice and feet the more likely you are to be able to counter them without even having to fight...just like in real life.....
    Randy Harris
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    And in fact, if they are full blown "scenarios" and not just set up fights ,the practitioner can often negotiate the scenario without pulling his gun if his "pre fight " game is good. The better you are at picking up on the cues of impending assualt and using your head, voice and feet the more likely you are to be able to counter them without even having to fight...just like in real life.....
    excellent point and you are correct the best way to ensure you win the fight is to avoid having it in the first place.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    OK THEN (with regard to the training exercise), good you fired before he decided to sit on you after the stabbing.

    Not to change subject, but after you kicked and spun your real-world suspect, what was your next move? What do you mean by "to get hands on?" My inclination might be to run (not an option for you).

    I don't imagine you wanted to be in a wrestling match at that point.
    Did you take him down with an arm bar? Choke (are you allowed?)?

    I'm just trying to learn from your experience.
    I used an arm bar

    as for the choke.....its not a choke but either a lateral or bi-lateral vascular neck restraint , and it is considered deadly force and should only be used when justified, since it cuts off blood circulation to the head, lights out
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  5. #65
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    Sure, my quotes are open source:) You should hear me in person.

    Here is a news flash, training where you are on line with 50 other shooters, punching paper on a buzzer, do you really think it will transfer to a situation where you are alone, the target is a moving human being, and the cue to shoot is a drawn weapon?

    If these failure to stop drills are anything other than and a standard to test speed and marksmanship where is the real world documentation to support their effectiveness for CCW folks and police?-Mercop
    George, as a fellow instructor and student of self defense, I commend you sir on the above statements. Very few instructors are willing to say these things. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head may work if you are a SWAT Team or anti-terrorist unit who throws in a flash bang stunning the intended threat(s). However, in a dynamic situation while out on the street, it is highly unlikely.

    If you read about Jim Cirillo, the New York police detective and survivor of numerous documented gunfights, you will find he made some headshots during the many battles he was involved in; in fact one of his most discussed encounters has been covered by Massad Ayoob. Cirillo used a .38 special to make headshots at a reported distance of 25 feet? It all boils down to practice, practice and more practice.
    Do we know the circumstances of those situations involving headshots? I mean, was the target standing still? Was the head the only target? How many shots were fired before he hit the head? COULD it have been pure luck? We will probably never know. However, point being, don’t go for head shots unless you are 100% for sure you can hit it. And I’d say most of the time you aren’t going to be 100% sure.

    Heck, with an average hit ratio of about 20%, what are the odds you are going to hit your target, not to mention a small target like the head.

    Brian

  6. #66
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    One thing no on ever mentions is distance. The other is dynamics.

    What is the distance? Seven yards? Or is it more like TWO yards?

    And was the target sprinting laterally or was he caught somewhat surprised when you quickly stepped off line and came out with a pistol? If so then he is likely to stand there processing the info long enough for your burst to the body and burst to the head to find its mark. Also if he has been hit with a couple of rounds he may well be still on his feet, but not moving very fast.....and THAT is your opportunity.

    If we are talking about gunfights at more than 5 yards then yes, head shots are highly unlikely.

    But if we are talking about an incident that takes place at 3 yards (or less-like most civilian involved shootings) then I would suggest that with a little directed practice that head shots are not at all difficult at that distance.

    Don't believe it? Come to my FOF class and see.
    Randy Harris
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  7. #67
    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian@ITC View Post
    George, as a fellow instructor and student of self defense, I commend you sir on the above statements. Very few instructors are willing to say these things. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head may work if you are a SWAT Team or anti-terrorist unit who throws in a flash bang stunning the intended threat(s). However, in a dynamic situation while out on the street, it is highly unlikely.



    Do we know the circumstances of those situations involving headshots? I mean, was the target standing still? Was the head the only target? How many shots were fired before he hit the head? COULD it have been pure luck? We will probably never know. However, point being, don’t go for head shots unless you are 100% for sure you can hit it. And I’d say most of the time you aren’t going to be 100% sure.

    Heck, with an average hit ratio of about 20%, what are the odds you are going to hit your target, not to mention a small target like the head.

    Brian
    One of Jimmy Cirillo's head shots was at a stake out, it was all he could see of the hold up man, over the stores display shelves (Drug Store?)

    Mind you, he was an incredible shot.

  8. #68
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    But if we are talking about an incident that takes place at 3 yards (or less-like most civilian involved shootings) then I would suggest that with a little directed practice that head shots are not at all difficult at that distance.
    I was to start off that I mean no disrespect with what I am about to say. Now, one thing about FOF training is that it does NOT portray real life threatening situations as well as what we'd like to think. It would not surprise me at all that people are getting head shots in FOF training. HOWEVER, when your life is on the line, bullets are flying your way or someone has a knife and is trying to KILL YOU FOR REAL, I highly doubt you will be as good of a shot as you are on the square range or in FOF scenarios. One pitfall of FOF training is that people do things they would never do in a real life threatening encounter that they do in FOF training as they do in sparring with martial arts. Why, because no one is going to get seriously injured or killed.

    So, FOF training does not always prove or disprove anything. It is what it is, controlled training. What works in FOF is not always or even often going to work in the real deal.

    As far as Jim's abilities, he might have been an exceptional shot. The keyword is EXCEPTION to the rule, not the average person. Personally, I won't count on the head shot being there. If it is and the circumstance are right, by all means take it. Otherwise, I would say probably don't do it.

    Train hard, train often, and most of all, train realistically!

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  9. #69
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    And that is the reason that the training ..recent , relevant and realistic training, is so important. Once the subconcious mind is imprinted with the proper responses we pretty much just do them...as long as the situation is substantially similiar to something we have seen before.

    Why do people automaticly tap the brake without thinking while driving when they see a car brake lights and slowing down in front of them? Because they have seen that before and know it means that car in front of them is slowing down and they need to also. In fact driving a car is a great analogy for managing many different things at once. You have to steer, navigate, control acceleration and braking, pay attention to cars in the other lanes and in front of you and cars in front of them. But most people can do all that AND talk on the phone and sip their coffee all at the same time? How? They drive every day.

    In fact driving on a major interstate at 75 miles an hour in traffic is not something you do well without practice. So if you think head shots are not possible, I would submit that if you took amazon tribesmen who have never seen an automobile before and put them in traffic you will end up with a 50 car pile up..why? They have never been in a car, have never driven a car, have never seen that problem(traffic at speed) before and their mental rolodex has no answer to it.So what do you get? Panic and indecision. But if you have been doing this since you were 16 you think nothing of driving 75 miles an hour, safely changing lanes while signalling and sipping your coffee. Why because A. you have been exposed to it and B. you have practiced it. You do not have to be a NASCAR level driver to do it, you just have to have been in the situation or a very close approximation of it and have practiced it....your subconscious takes care of the rest.

    Why do pilots learn in flight SIMULATORS? Because it is a very close approximation of what flying the plane is like. Is it EXACTLY the same? No. But it CAN BE close enough that they emerge from the simulator all shaken up. Why? The stress that the instructors put on them through the simulator.


    The only way to imprint these things subconsciously is to do it over and over again and you get even better results when it is done in a semi adrenalized state. Your subconscious actually "records" better under traumatic or semi traumatic circumstances. So if we just play at FOF like it is a 9 year old kid's water gun fight then yes it is JUST training of questionable value. But if we amp it up with the participant having to multi task and deal with REALISTIC criminal assault from bad guy role players who are not being "nice" to them then you get far better results.

    But maybe the scientists who study how the subconscious processes info are wrong......

    The other issue no one has mentioned yet is that in REAL shootings people often either run away or fall down when they get shot. So if the head is no longer there to shoot at then OF COURSE there is no head shot taken.......
    Randy Harris
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  10. #70
    Member Array Taylor's Avatar
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    Interesting FOF thread going on at TPI. An example of one post is below.
    __________________________________________________ __
    FROM TPI

    This phenomenon is precisely what Ken Good describes regarding his airborne experiences in his essay on the OODA cycle:

    "When I was in the military, I had the opportunity to free-fall parachute out of a perfectly
    good airplane. When I immediately recalled the first jump experience, it appeared to be a
    virtual slideshow. Only key images where etched into my mind. I remember checking my
    altimeter numerous times, verifying the location of my rip-cord (this dates me!), seeing the
    beauty of an inflated canopy and finding the “T” and then contact with the ground. The
    entire event was 5-7 minutes long. After 60-100 jumps the staccato slideshow morphed
    into a streaming digital video. Same timeframe, but now my brain did not have to spend
    precious resources finding a “spot” to burn the information in since it was no longer new
    information but familiar territory. I could now casually see everyone exit the aircraft,
    immediately place myself in proper perspective to all jumpers, the aircraft and the ground.
    I was spending plenty of time doing relative work with other jumpers, flying my canopy and
    landing extremely close to the desired target. I was now able to assimilate huge blocks of
    visual data effortlessly, as well as recall them with great accuracy and clarity. I was now
    “oriented” to this somewhat stressful event."

    Maybe the underlying value of FoF is that it enables the brain to Orient better and quicker during the real thing.

    END FROM TPI
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    I have looked at some of the FOF classes and some of the things done make a lot of sense to me but some of the other stuff just doesn`t. To me I see what Ken Good is describing in his statements as the biggest benefit to FOF. My biggest hold up on taking some of the FOF stuff is the scenario training. What I have seen just doesn`t strike me as realistic enough and I wonder just how accurate it is to an actual fight.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    While I do find the two to the chest one to the head corny movie stuff.

    I do however pratice tripple tapping. For when I did take a private pistol course the instructor was one who practiced/taught tripple tap, a triangle area of the two nipples and the lower throat area. Wich is about an 8inch circle. That's the area I train for.

  12. #72
    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    I contacted Ken Good when he worked for Sure Fire, he used my idea on the official site. Nice guy.

    One area of risk I had to soak up real quick, body language, sound direction recognition, especially small sneaky movements.

    Part time bouncer in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1964 Cavern Club, last year of that five, the Blue Angel an Seal St. And each incident in which you attacked individuals, and groups! Cements the lesson as viable (plus, loosing sucks) you always tried to never take hold of some one.

    Those years are the ones that made thinking redundant!

    Thinking just took too long. And it does not go away. Fifty year have gone by, eyes still take every thing in, sharp sounds gets addressed PDQ. (I used to be paranoid) Now just cautious!

  13. #73
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    I just got back from serving as an adjunct instructor at a high threat driving course for some deploying military personnel and I was chatting this over with the HMFIC who has really done contracting work (you know, not building decks and stuff) Last year he fired 48,000 rounds of pistol (no that is not a typo) this in addition to an incredible amount of FOF. When I brought up the whole head shot thing he said "sure" if the guy is standing still. "But why would you want to shoot at a 3 in moving target instead of COM".

    When it comes down to it everyone is going to do what they want. For me and the people I teach I will continue to teach what I believe is the most effective under the majority of circumstances. If the situation allows you to "aim" for the head...take the shot.- George

  14. #74
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    Before night sights and night vision the army use to teach there basic night shooting as,you shot to hit the ground out after 50 ydrs,why?Richochet bullets will kill more kooks!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    And that is the reason that the training ..recent , relevant and realistic training, is so important.


    Why do pilots learn in flight SIMULATORS? Because it is a very close approximation of what flying the plane is like. Is it EXACTLY the same? No. But it CAN BE close enough that they emerge from the simulator all shaken up. Why? The stress that the instructors put on them through the simulator.
    +1
    They also have the benefit of going through Red Flag... it's "more combat" and more stressful than a lot of real world combat.
    Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
    And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

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