Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

This is a discussion on Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Over the last two years and running hundreds of scenarios with airsofts I have not had one person report that they were able to target/aim ...

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Thread: Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

    Over the last two years and running hundreds of scenarios with airsofts I have not had one person report that they were able to target/aim for the head during a scenario. We also seldom have anyone hit in the head. Maybe 1 in every class or so. And the majority of the confrontations shots are exchanged at well under 10 yards. What we do have is incredible amount of people shot in the groin. To the point where some alumni choose to wear a cup.

    Kind of makes sense because unlike the head and legs the pelvic girdle does no move independently. During the draw, your pistol is going to travel past their pelvic girdle so why not engage it.

    Knowing at what short distances shootings occur I have to wonder where you are getting the time to check out your handy work on COM and decide that you need to shoot for the head. I mean after all you are probably not facing a slow moving Zombie. Another thing to consider is that counting on hitting the head in response to COM not working is like trying to move across four lanes of traffic to your last exit. You miss it and you are screwed. I would rather get over and try to take the first exit (pelvic girdle).

    What will be the bodies reaction to a ballistic ball tap? Most likely the head will come forward exposing the top of the head, subclavian arteries, and eventually the spine the further they bend over. Their head becomes COM. And in a situation that has gone from bad to worse and we are trying to shoot at the smallest part of the human body where exactly are those round going that miss?

    Is the "pro way" has been two to the chest and one to the head for all these years where is the supporting documentation that it really happens that way.

    1) That people report during a shooting people make a conscious decision to target the head.
    2) It results in the attacker bursting into flames as advertised on the box.


    Until I found out how seldom some of our long held wisdom gained on paper targets was to reproduce during force on force scenarios I held onto it as well. I feel some who stick with the same old dogma may suffer the same fate as the dinosaurs.- George


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    What will be the bodies reaction to a ballistic ball tap?
    As always, strong post, Mercop. I'm trying not to laugh, but you do have a way with words...

    I heartily agree. I have no delusions that I'm a trained assassin. In the dreaded event that I'm uncorking on a human, I'm sticking to COM and hoping to even hit that.
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    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
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    You stole my quote WHEC724! That line is classic! Mind if I use it mercop?

    I too have trained two to the chest one to the head, but IIRC I believe I had been taught that the groin was a perfectly acceptable target. Due to what I suppose people perceive as a handicap, I have been off the door busting teams for a couple years, but I am pretty sure the groin contains a cluster of arteries (femoral and whatever they stem from) and a very sensitive man area. I am not disputing anything you are saying, I am just wondering how many others have been taught this somewhere along the line, but have dismissed it for the more popular and cool sounding two to the chest, one in the face?

    It is also interesting to hear of the evidence. Unfortunately I have not had the experience of FoF training. It is easy to take the time to shoot what we are trained when the targets arent moving/shooting.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Sure, my quotes are open source:) You should hear me in person.

    Here is a news flash, training where you are on line with 50 other shooters, punching paper on a buzzer, do you really think it will transfer to a situation where you are alone, the target is a moving human being, and the cue to shoot is a drawn weapon?

    If these failure to stop drills are anything other than and a standard to test speed and marksmanship where is the real world documentation to support their effectiveness for CCW folks and police?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    I quit teaching my soldiers anything resembling the Mozambique drill. We start with one in the widest part of the body you can see and work up. We shoot untill they drop unless there are multiple targets.
    I have one report from one of my students in A-Stan and he fired six shots stitching up starting at the beltline. The distance was right at 15 feet. It worked.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Thank you for your service and dedication to realistic training to those doing the Lord's work.- George

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    How many LEO's were found dead with brass in their hands, before they let you drop the brass on the ground at the range? You will do in the heat of battle that which you have trained to do. Back in 1969, that was to empty the brass from your revolver into your strong hand, which really interferes with reloading. I'm glad they finally go that fixed,then we switched to .357, then to 9 mm, then to 40.

    As for the thread, I'm aiming COM, which would include the groin area. If the BG manages to get off, he won't forget the incident if he has to use a bag for the rest of his life.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    I wonder if the simple fact that your students don't want to actually hurt their training partners/instructors is playing a factor.

    After all most kids that are raised with pellet/airsoft or bb guns, paintball, have always been told to "Not aim at the head"

    I do agree that the groin shot is effective though.
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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    good question Shadowsbane

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsbane View Post
    I wonder if the simple fact that your students don't want to actually hurt their training partners/instructors is playing a factor.

    After all most kids that are raised with pellet/airsoft or bb guns, paintball, have always been told to "Not aim at the head"

    I do agree that the groin shot is effective though.
    Good question. I'm inclined to believe that even if you did the experiment with the face well shielded, their might still be a bias on the shooter's part to avoid the head shot. But then, that bias might play out in the real world as well, no matter how many times one tells themselves they'll shoot for the head.

    As usual, another great thought provoking post and big applause to Mercop.

  10. #10
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    I can hit the head consistently on paper targets at the range. I practice it merely to practice hitting a smaller target.

    I have no illusions of being able to make a head shot on a real person in a gunfight, and don't even anticipate trying to do so.

    Ever watch a LEO's dash cam video of an officer drawing, trying to get out of the line of fire and return fire at a traffic stop shootout? It resembles the "pee pee" dance and I imagine that is what I'm going to be trying to do if I'm ever involved in a gunfight.

    I presume the attack is going to happen within 10 feet and quite possibly at contact distance. It's likely all I'm going to be able to handle is move out of the way while I attempt to blast away at center mass as quick as I can pull the trigger. Any break in the shooting what-so-ever and the bad guy is still standing? I'm still going to be gaining distance and trying to find cover.

    No head shots for me!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Over the last two years and running hundreds of scenarios with airsofts I have not had one person report that they were able to target/aim for the head during a scenario.
    That's interesting. I've seen a fair number of deliberate headshots in FoF, and I've been on both the giving and receiving end. This may be because several of the FoF instructors explicitly encouraged folks to take headshots.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Knowing at what short distances shootings occur I have to wonder where you are getting the time to check out your handy work on COM and decide that you need to shoot for the head.
    I think the problem here is not the headshot, it's the idea of forcing people to asses and deliberately decide to shoot for the head. A better approach, in my view, is to make follow-up headshots the default. Fire a burst of 3-5 rounds into the torso, then immediately switch to the head. As long the head is still there (meaning he hasn't gone down or run away) there's no reason not to take the headshot.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    As I think about this a bit more I wonder if the lack of headshots may just be one symptom of a wider task fixation problem in FoF (and probably real fights as well). While I have seen some headshots in FoF, I've also seen people continuing to shoot their opponents in the torso despite a lack of effectiveness. Similarly, I've seen students in multiple adversary situations lock onto one opponent and ignore the others. In more freeform scenarios, students often pick one course of action and stick with it even when it should be clear that it's not working. All of these seem to be related.

  13. #13
    Member Array DIXIETWISTER's Avatar
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    2) It results in the attacker bursting into flames as advertised on the box.



    PRETTY CLOSE>>>>YouTube - Clerk Shoots Robber in The Face (Video) ........GUN fight OVER...


    forget the two to the chest..this is one to the face
    You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
    You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
    However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
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    2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man

  14. #14
    Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    Mozambique

    During the draw, your pistol is going to travel past their pelvic girdle so why not engage it.
    That kind of draw has you lifting the pistol up, slow, and hard to stop.

    Use the punch draw, the pistol stops at the end of the focused punch, then fires. Because that's when you press the trigger.

    The Mozambique was derived from a defensive shooting in South Africa, many years ago, two to the body (the infamous double tap) was fired, no apparent effect.

    Aimed at head, fired one more shot, instant collapse. But, the round hit the center of the throat! Not the head.

    Dr. Martin Fackler said the pelvic bone is the largest bone mass on the human body, a pistol round would just punch a hole in it. He told that to a class I was in.

    Shoot lots of rounds, hi chest, move/shoot/take cover.

    And in a fire fight? Do whatever, quickly, some time works!
    Last edited by JD; May 4th, 2010 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags

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    Post A Slice Of History

    The Close Quarter Mozambique was originally brought into play in the U.S. by Jeff Cooper as it was relayed to Cooper by Michael Rousseau (Sp?) who brought it back from Mozambique & prior to that it was a killing technique in actual use in Mozambique.

    Cooper managed to make it work back then as I'm "best guessing" it also did in Mozambique so I'm not certain why it would prove to be something so totally unrealistic today but, many things related to self~defensive shooting have morphed greatly since then.

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