Clearing buildings and rooms...

[JD]

And here we are civilians living in a civilian world discussing military operations. For the purpose of gaming I'd have no problem with doing it. I cant see anyone outside some few SWAT teams, or HSLD security teams performing military premis clearing. I personally believe these tactics should be limited to the Military that is trained practiced, and equipped to do it properly, and safely.

I do believe that civilian's, and armed citizens should have some idea of how to make safe their own home in extreme situations. But I dont think military tactics is the answer. I'd like to see some school develop a program to teach just this. Police Officers search, and clear all kind of places alone, or with one other officer every day.

This conversation should also cover the difference between a military premis search, and a police search. Two completely different skill set's.
Well thats just my opinion anyway.

TDI has some damn good room clearing drills staring in their Pistol III class and goes on through their Pistol IV and V classes. They teach it for one person tactics with a handgun, not a team of guys with MP5s etc.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Cold Shot]

Good thread; I'm a little late but I have some observations that haven't been mentioned.

To the OP - It may better to start with a guy on the left and a guy on the right and crisscross, but you would have to get a guy to the other side of the door or opening, which may not be possible. If you were clearing a hallway with a bunch of doors at regular intervals, you have to clear each room before anybody can move on to the next. Even if there are sturdy doors, think about "No Country for Old Men" when Javier Barbem took off his shoes and turned off the lights before going in a room. You can't go past a door if the room isn't clear. If the floorplan is more complicated, then you might have to improvise and do fancier stuff, i.e. crisscross.

Also, a lot of this stuff come's down to a unit's SOP. Some people have different ways of doing things. For example, some 1 men button hook no matter what and some people go across and clear the far side of a room and let the 2 man button hook.

Glockman, it's Hue City.

I feel like SWAT teams and SF/spec ops operate a little differently than infantry soldiers/Marines. The former, especially SWAT, may be required to be more methodical and might move slower at times. They might have intel on a specific building and spend a lot of time rehearsing. The latter, on the other hand, may be tasked with clearing an entire city, and they might not know anything about a building, so they have to flood the building and move with a purpose.

Momentum and communication are key. MOUT is a very dangerous form of combat, but to be successful, a unit has exhibit violence of action. A single man can have neither momentum nor communication, so it's a tall task when we talk about civilian room clearing.

Finally, if you can find an HE solution, use it. Frags are necessary and should be used as often as possible, but a SMAW with NE rounds are better.

[CR Williams]

I'd like to see some school develop a program to teach just this. Police Officers search, and clear all kind of places alone, or with one other officer every day.

Suarez International USA, Inc. - CQB - Fighting In Structures

[MitchellCT]

CourseWorks | ShivWorks

Armed Movement in Structures:

The ShivWorks Armed Movement in Structures (AMIS) course is a twenty hour block of instruction focusing on negotiating movement problems within structures with limited or no resources. Realizing that moving through a structure that contains armed hostiles, perhaps by one’s self, is probably the most dangerous task one can undertake, the best options for winning a confrontation are presented with the qualification that there is no safe way to do this.

Day One (12 hours):
- Viewing the environment in terms of the unseen
- Vertical, Horizontal, and Diagonal planes of visual obscurement
- Distance variables and the visual apex
- Threshold evaluation
- Dynamic and Deliberate movement
- Room Entry factors (known versus unknown)
- Minimizing multiple exposure
- Modifying the fighting platform to conform to cover and concealment
- Re-setting/Disrupting the adversary’s OODA loop
- Chalk board exercises
- Dry-runs
- FoF evolutions
- Low-light module

Day Two (8 hours)
- Practical Exercises for egress, search, and third-party rescue

[64zebra]

I feel like SWAT teams and SF/spec ops operate a little differently than infantry soldiers/Marines. The former, especially SWAT, may be required to be more methodical and might move slower at times. They might have intel on a specific building and spend a lot of time rehearsing. The latter, on the other hand, may be tasked with clearing an entire city, and they might not know anything about a building, so they have to flood the building and move with a purpose.

Momentum and communication are key. MOUT is a very dangerous form of combat, but to be successful, a unit has exhibit violence of action. A single man can have neither momentum nor communication, so it's a tall task when we talk about civilian room clearing.

^^^^^^ this

room clearing in the LE world vs military in urban combat is 180 from each other most of the time, each have their own purpose and tactics
I'd love to talk tactics from my perspective, since we clear buildings/houses on a regular basis, but I'd hate to discuss our tactics here when they are what we have in our favor clearing rooms in a dark building

as for homeowner clearing their house, they do have the advantage knowing the layout where the BG may not, but clearing a house by yourself is not the best thing in the world to do, if you truly have a break in, get you/your family to your safe room if possible (you do have a 'safe room' don't you?), get 911 working, and defend that point with all you've got
I'm pretty lucky in that all our bedrooms are at one end of the hall and I can use the hallway as a long fatal funnel if need be, easy to see things into the living room and kitchen area where the front & back doors are located, my house is pretty easy to clear if I have to, no leaving an area behind where someone could slip in behind me, etc YMMV

classes on room clearing using sims or airsoft FOF is eye opening for anyone, good training

Ex...PM sent

[1shooter]

Great discussion!
I don't think I'll ever clear a room as a home owner. Holding ground and waiting for cavalry must be the best option at 3am with a scared wife and kids...
But still a great look into the how's and whys of the armed forces and LEO aka the cavalry's world. Thank you!

[kelcarry]

I am very far away from the overall tone of this thread. Sweeping and clearing my home and its rooms is not part of my home defense--then again it is only my wife and I with no other household members in other corners of the house. At night I lock my bedroom door and wedge it, and have my cell phone, my remote car alarm, my FN57 pistol within reach. Within a few steps is a 12 g with double O. Someone is in my house, everything in all the other rooms is "stuff" that is replaceable and insured. I call 911, activate car alarm and lights, set myself up in a tactical location in my bedroom and wait and listen. I will not go out of my bedroom--BG(s) may be bigger and badder and better at this "gunstuff" than me--I am insured but not replaceable. If they try to defeat my bedroom door, they will go out very differently then when they entered. When I leave my house I relocate my 57 to a garage location so that when I enter, I have it available. No sweeping, no clearing---Quite frankly, I feel sorry for any of you who find all this military ops stuff to be necessary on some kind of daily basis wherever you live. Hoping it remains words and training and never your real world. Peace and G-d Bless.

[oneshot]

As a civilian/private citizen? Put the car in reverse, drive away and call the police......

I would rather use CAS

I'll second that one.........the best CQB weapon is a 500 lb laser guided bomb......

^^^^^^^^Or do what I do^^^^^^^^

and send in my 7 yr. old, who draws a close resemblance to the pic below.
He is probably wittier and more cunning than Stuey!!

Great discussion!
I don't think I'll ever clear a room as a home owner. Holding ground and waiting for cavalry must be the best option at 3am with a scared wife and kids...
But still a great look into the how's and whys of the armed forces and LEO aka the cavalry's world. Thank you!

^^YEP to above^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good thread post, and May all of you in LE and the Military keep safe and secure, and watch your brothers six.

[kelcarry]

And here we are civilians living in a civilian world discussing military operations. For the purpose of gaming I'd have no problem with doing it. I cant see anyone outside some few SWAT teams, or HSLD security teams performing military premis clearing. I personally believe these tactics should be limited to the Military that is trained practiced, and equipped to do it properly, and safely.

I do believe that civilian's, and armed citizens should have some idea of how to make safe their own home in extreme situations. But I dont think military tactics is the answer. I'd like to see some school develop a program to teach just this. Police Officers search, and clear all kind of places alone, or with one other officer every day.

This conversation should also cover the difference between a military premis search, and a police search. Two completely different skill set's.
Well thats just my opinion anyway.

Thank you Secret for saying something akin to my reply #37. I'm a retired guy livin in a house with a wife and all of a sudden I am in the midst of a military invasion on this thread. I tend to think there are many forums out there that are "geared" to more sophisticated defense-related subjects--hey it seems to have an interest with many replies so have at it--just took me by surprise with its overall content and replies.

[lordofwyr]

The best way to clear your own house is not to have to clear it in the first place, especially if you have children in multiple rooms. This is a good time to have furry children that will not continue to bark at a known child, but will go into a frenzy if there is a burglar in the house.

Remember that something going bump in the night is a lot more likely to be one of the kids after a late night burrito or hot pocket, or that frelling raccoon or possum coming in after dog food through the dog door than a burglar.

Was that broken window or door banging open at 3am one of your older kids that forgot their key, or drank a bit too much and is trying to sneak in? Have you discussed those things with them and did they listen?

That said, if you think a Bad Guy is in the house and you need to move to secure the children, there is no good way to do this. Yes, you know the layout, but will the Bad Guy be a drugged up freak that multiple rounds may or may not drop instantly? Best to call 911 immediately and if you DO feel you need to clear the house, have some training in how to PIE doorways, use of flashlights and use of dark, and stealth.

And mostly, may the fates smile on you, because you are gonna need it.

Personally, on duty I would rather send in a dog than go in with a partner. Then again, at home, I am lobbing in two weinerdogs, one mutant min-pin and my farm mongrel turned city slicker. They will be my best first line of defense and will let me know what is up pretty fast.

[Smitty901]

Thank you Secret for saying something akin to my reply #37. I'm a retired guy livin in a house with a wife and all of a sudden I am in the midst of a military invasion on this thread. I tend to think there are many forums out there that are "geared" to more sophisticated defense-related subjects--hey it seems to have an interest with many replies so have at it--just took me by surprise with its overall content and replies.

tend to agree with Secret and some others LEO clearing a build and the building clearing we did are two different worlds. If you notice SWAT teams go in with over whelming force and fire power. That is not the same as poking around your house alone.
I would hope that in your own home you could stay put and in control of the room your in running around the house looking for a BG can make things much worst.
However situation will dictate.
I am also retired and hope I never have to clear a build, or send anyone else in to do it again .

[64zebra]

had to add....I had to search a building on an alarm this weekend, its never gets any easier going in not knowing if someone is lying in a dark corner waiting to ambush when you come in

also wanted to share a quick story.....a few months ago we had a business alarm (night), me and my buddy get there, door cracked open, tell dispatch we're making entry....he is 'slicing the pie' as he pushes the door open....as the door gets almost 90 degrees a dirtbag runs out of the darkness at him lunging for his gun, my buddy pulls the gun back but my view is blocked and I thought he had my buddy's gun, I almost shot the dirtbag in the head at this point but my buddy pushed him to the side as he turned, so i holstered and we cleaned his clock, got him cuffed and buddy held the door until some more units got there to assist, that was a moment of increase in pucker factor to say the least, he had been going through this business' desks etc and had a 8" screwdriver in his jacket pocket
we go on so many false alarms, then there is that one that is legit and almost turns tragic when clearing a building

[docdozer]

The scariest thing I have ever done in training is clearing a room/ house by myself. You realize quickly how inadequate it is.
Dogs are definitely an important part of defense and early warning.
Unfortunately I share mine right now and they are not with me.
I have cleared my house when I have heard strange noises. My heart pounds and it is definitely hair raising. It also takes a while to decompress after you come in contact with someone unexpected in your house.....someone I know and i stood down and they learned not to try to surprise me. It could have ended badly though....I cannot overstate the value of training, it helps keep you focused and clear and helps you make critical decisions.