Clearing buildings and rooms...

This is a discussion on Clearing buildings and rooms... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay, I've sent this now to my friends in the sand box and to a couple of friends who carry badges for a living. I've ...

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Thread: Clearing buildings and rooms...

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question Clearing buildings and rooms...

    Okay, I've sent this now to my friends in the sand box and to a couple of friends who carry badges for a living. I've been trying to remember the proper tactical techniques I learned oh so long ago for building & room clearing. Transferring it to the here and now with the obvious limitations on myself as no longer being an army officer; therefore tossing in a grenade before entering isn't a viable notion.

    However, keeping in mind the need these days to keep collateral damages down there are still some glaring contrasts in what I was taught and what must be taking place in real life, now. So I'll post exactly what I sent to these friends of mine and let the discussions begin!

    I've been trying to remember the technique for clearing a room (without first tossing in a hand grenade, lol).

    I know it requires TWO individuals, otherwise whichever way you entered the room you'd be presenting your back to a potential threat behind you.

    I can't remember if you stack at the door and one goes high and the other low sweeping the room in reversing arcs with the weapons.

    OR if one goes in from the left and the other from the right turning immediately to move along the wall in opposite directions sweeping in that manner. Which works better in your opinion? Also what do you guys do if different from my two techniques? Remember, without tossing in a 'Nade first or blowing a hole thru a wall to avoid the door.

    I was also taught that it's important to clear multi story buildings from the TOP down. That forces enemy troops out of the building instead of to the roof where they run out of room and take on a "last stand" mentality. How does that work in real life? I don't expect you get a lot of chopper support to rappel or fast rope down to clear every building in a village, huh? So that means you've got to go up from the 1st floor, right? Are your M4s on auto, burst or single? Do you deploy the SAWs in those ops? Is there ever a time when you'd use a handgun instead of the M4?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    I've only ever done EBCR as a four-man stack. If you have casualties, realistically, another fire team will replace yours and you'll be done for the day. With the method my unit use,s you can do it with as few as two people, but with a corresponding increase in danger as each is responsible for clearing a bigger piece of the pie and maintaining security on more of the room.

    I'm sure every organization has their own way to do it.

    We stack on one side of the door, with the point man deciding which way to go based on conditions in the room. I like being point, and I will buttonhook to whichever direction the door hinges are on so I can slam the door against the wall with my shoulder, thus disorienting anyone hiding there, alerting me to the presence of someone there (Since the door won't close all the way), and possible trapping potential weapons away from me.

    Following soldiers go opposite directions, i.e. if I go left, No. 2 man will go right, then No. 3 will follow me left, and No. 4 will go right. We stay a couple feet away from the wall, and the SAW gunner is usually No. 4 man, due to the weight and cumbersome nature of his weapon and the slight decrease in safety as it fires from an open bolt.

    First two people clear toward the corner of the room in the direction they're heading, then clear toward the center of the room, while being sure to check up and down.

    Things get more complicated with small rooms or rooms with lots of windows, other doors, hallways, stairs, closets, or in-room concealment, but that's the general gist.

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    Wink Whoa...

    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post
    I will buttonhook to whichever direction the door hinges are on so I can slam the door against the wall with my shoulder, thus disorienting anyone hiding there, alerting me to the presence of someone there (Since the door won't close all the way), and possible trapping potential weapons away from me.
    THIS is an awesome idea I'd not before considered!
    JerryMac likes this.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The MOUT [MILITARY OPERATIONS IN URBAN TERRAIN]which we were taught in the Marines and used in Panama, Liberia, and Kuwaiit City was much like the one described by SamRudolph. We used 5, which included the team leader that was positioned in the back and carried extra things that might be needed such as flash bangs or breaching tools. The team would go into together with each armed member being responsible for a 4th of the room starting center, high left,low left,high right, low right. Once the main room was announced as clear, the team would stand down as another team would take over. Both teams would leap frog thru the building until it was complete. Communications and speed are very important. Also, use your hands around door frames and window sills to check for rigging wires of booby traps. Also mirrors are handy to see around corners. The only time I have ever used fast roping techniques from a bird was when we did an emergency evac of the American Embassy in Liberia, and we went in on a CH-53 SEA KNIGHT with Cobra gunships running security. We recieved the orders on ship and had 2 hours to familiarize ourselves with the layout of the building, and used garbage cans and boxes to make a makeshift model of the building to practice our dry runs. That, was a crazy night!

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    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The MOUT [MILITARY OPERATIONS IN URBAN TERRAIN]which we were taught in the Marines and used in Panama, Liberia, and Kuwaiit City was much like the one described by SamRudolph. We used 5, which included the team leader that was positioned in the back and carried extra things that might be needed such as flash bangs or breaching tools.
    Ditto on the checking for booby traps. Have to balance speed and safety, but it's good to at least check quickly.

    Usually we have the No. 4 man breach, which can suck because sometimes he'll be stuck with a breaching kit AND the SAW (As a SAW gunner I have a special grudge about this). Personally, I would have the No. 3 man carry the breach kit slung on his back, since then when the team stacks up, No. 4 has ready access to it, but doesn't have to carry it.

    The way I described it is more or less the way the Army FM says to do it. Marines have bigger fire teams, so they have a bit more margin than we do. Our team leader is usually No. 2 or No. 3, and the most expendable or annoying private is usually No. 1.

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    Member Array DS99's Avatar
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    As a civilian/private citizen? Put the car in reverse, drive away and call the police......

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    Wink Welcome to the forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by DS99 View Post
    As a civilian/private citizen? Put the car in reverse, drive away and call the police......
    Reasonable advice. However as the original poster let me give some background. I'm a writer and this is research. Moreover, I had the skills as a former US Army Infantry Captain, but it was a long time ago. I wanted to see what the state of the art is TODAY and what's being done TODAY. The folks in this forum have the experience in real time and training that was not as available to me in my day. At that time, many of my NCO's were Vietnam Vets and clearing houses wasn't exactly normal whereas clearing small cramped darkened tunnels was. But, welcome to the forum anyway!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    MOUT ops are probably the most dangerous type of warfare. I am not sure of the spelling, but Whei City in Vietnam showed the Marines the desperate need for urban warfare training. Until then there was no formal house to house training. The requirement to preserve structures such as religious buildings and buildings of historical importance was also a reason. In more modern times, 80s to current we have seen the increase in this type of warfare. Unfortunatley, the old saying of give us your hearts and minds or we'll blow your damn huts up is no longer acceptable. Times change.

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    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    MOUT ops are probably the most dangerous type of warfare. I am not sure of the spelling, but Whei City in Vietnam showed the Marines the desperate need for urban warfare training. Until then there was no formal house to house training. The requirement to preserve structures such as religious buildings and buildings of historical importance was also a reason. In more modern times, 80s to current we have seen the increase in this type of warfare. Unfortunatley, the old saying of give us your hearts and minds or we'll blow your damn huts up is no longer acceptable. Times change.

    I heard an anecdotal story that one commander told his men to "Do what Vic Morrow does on Combat..." and his unit turned out okay. No idea of the veracity of the story, but it is kinda funny.

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    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    Combat in Cities,. MOUT was the daily skill trained by the Berlin Brigade. As a member I did the course at least 100 times. Since then I've trained with numerous police forces, Mas Ayoob's LFI II and III, Training with Marty Hayes at FAS.
    That said, I'd get Gabe Suarez' book The Tactical Advantage.
    Regardless of what folks think of Gabe it will give you what you need for writing.
    I'm also redoing a book that NAVINFOWEST has been assisting in a movie script and I used this book for a quick review myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Reasonable advice. However as the original poster let me give some background. I'm a writer and this is research. Moreover, I had the skills as a former US Army Infantry Captain, but it was a long time ago. I wanted to see what the state of the art is TODAY and what's being done TODAY. The folks in this forum have the experience in real time and training that was not as available to me in my day. At that time, many of my NCO's were Vietnam Vets and clearing houses wasn't exactly normal whereas clearing small cramped darkened tunnels was. But, welcome to the forum anyway!
    Thanks for the welcome. Sorry for the slightly smartass response.....

    There are a lot of folks who think that learning CQB for their own defensive use is a good idea though...which is rarely if ever going to be the case.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I would rather use CAS

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    Member Array DS99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I would rather use CAS
    I'll second that one.........the best CQB weapon is a 500 lb laser guided bomb......

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Take Shivworks Armed Movement In Structures class, or a similar class, and do a refresher based on individual tactics.

    The only way to do this stuff is to practice it against other people using airsoft or sim guns.

    I did a class with a local group, Specter Tactical. It was great - but also made the point that CQB sucks monkey dong, and that even against poorly trained opposition, it's harry, fast, furious and a great way to die.

    If you have the option of setting the building on fire and killing whoever runs out - take it.

    Hallways, stairways, rooms...death traps...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DS99 View Post
    Thanks for the welcome. Sorry for the slightly smartass response.....

    There are a lot of folks who think that learning CQB for their own defensive use is a good idea though...which is rarely if ever going to be the case.
    Really? You are going to call 911 for every single bump in the night and every time a screen door comes loose? Bet the local police really love responding to your house.

    I take a different point of view. I clear my house every time I've been away or anything "seems" out of the ordinary, with different contingency plans.

    1. If a break in is obvious, I do what you suggest. I consolidate my family and call 911.

    2. For bumps in the night, I take a graduated response. I clear my house, using the sight angles I already know because it IS my territory and I know it. I've rehearsed how to get around the house without skylighting myself. Our old house is very "active" and talks to us all the time. Don't need to call the police once a week, or whenever a family member walks around after bedtime.

    3. If I'm gone for a while, I saunter around, checking out various things that should be in a certain place. Anything out of place, I upgrade to #2 or #1 as is necessary.

    The folks I know that have one plan (Call 911) seem to be perfectly fine with Condition White, "because it's their home and thereby 'safe'". Not me.

    I won't even start to explain how I conduct myself at my place of work.

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