Defending against the low line power stab - Page 2

Defending against the low line power stab

This is a discussion on Defending against the low line power stab within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; O.K. I guess folks are missing my point. Though CTsketch sort of hinted at it with his reference to "usually WHILE doing a cross armed ...

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Thread: Defending against the low line power stab

  1. #16
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    O.K. I guess folks are missing my point. Though CTsketch sort of hinted at it with his reference to "usually WHILE doing a cross armed block," which is what I think I know as an X block.

    What I was trying to get at was the idea that the left hand in Mercop's photo needs to slide up onto the elbow if not hit the elbow immediately. That gives you control and an ability to shove the attacker off. It frees the right hand to go to your own weapon. In the photo, if you let the pressure up on the right hand to go for your own weapon the guy is totally free and you are in deep doo.

    So, my "what's next" question wasn't really intended to illicit the What is next in this once you get to the outside it to get a physical barrier between you if one is close," comment---even thought that is sensible enough.

    I was driving at notion that the block as shown is the initial step and other stuff
    needs to happen to either effect a disarm or gain some control of the arm.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    EW attacks come at close range since they are contact distance weapons. It takes 3/4 of a second for someone to respond to a known visual stimulus. The focus needs to be on the mechanism of the attack, not the weapon and needs to start on the preparatory or furtive movement. In training it too often starts with a big exposed training knife and a "are you ready".

    Crossing hands from one side to the other is advanced and cannot be taught in a day, because to do it fluidly requires footwork and footwork takes time to teach. Again what we teach in our principle based program is what works using the natural response to put you in a good position. If you fail to do this the chances of recovery are slimmer and slimmer. After you block/evade the attack you can do whatever you want to do, but not before.

    The bottom line is that I teach this often to people that come with no previous training and at the end of the day can do it at speed against a stun gun. If you try that with most traditional systems what you will get is people getting zapped and not coming back to your dojo.

    What I am doing has been taught to the USAF Special Operations Command DAGRE teams and lots of police/corrections. I always encourage people to seek ongoing realistic training, but in reality they might not and I am tasked with giving them a retain able skill set in a short period of time. The same is true for citizens.- George

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Funny, if this thread was about the fantasy of facing a visible edged weapon at 21 feet with a pistol without any pictures at all I think there would be dozens of posts about what people think they would do. But since it is pretty much about the fact that you will have to have open hand skills to survive an attack it just gets looked over. What would be the official IDPA response:) -George

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    So, what's the next move?
    Block the attack with a spread-X, clear the knife, check the knife arm just above the elbow, jam the other hand into his face and give him a good shove as I move off line to create distance. Then draw my pistol, shoot him a bunch of times in the chest and if that doesn't work, shoot him a bunch of times in the head.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Block the attack with a spread-X, clear the knife, check the knife arm just above the elbow, jam the other hand into his face and give him a good shove as I move off line to create distance. Then draw my pistol, shoot him a bunch of times in the chest and if that doesn't work shoot him a bunch of times in the head.

    I like where your mind is at, but you need to consider not having a pistol (well not "you" but anyone if for some reason they do not). I advocate ripping them down from behind, and kicking them into the head until they are no longer a threat. After all it is deadly force vs deadly force. No time for submission wrist locks etc.- George

  6. #21
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    I was taught a double-sweeping palms-together low block with a step into and just outside the front lunging foot. Your hands come up towards your centerline as you pass the arm and you simply tilt the top (left in this case) wrist up and out to guide the weapon arm offline from a quick and orderly retraction for another go while the right hand follows the arm over the shoulder and into the neck as hard as you can manage before you go low with strikes to create upper openings again.

    Not saying it's gonna work, but it's what I was taught...

  7. #22
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    re: Mercop / no time for... & ?? for psychochips

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I like where your mind is at, but you need to consider not having a pistol (well not "you" but anyone if for some reason they do not). I advocate ripping them down from behind, and kicking them into the head until they are no longer a threat. After all it is deadly force vs deadly force. No time for submission wrist locks etc.- George
    I understand where you were coming from with the notion that, "It takes 3/4 of a second for someone to respond to a known visual stimulus. The focus needs to be on the mechanism of the attack, not the weapon and needs to start on the preparatory or furtive movement. "

    The point I wanted to get at is that from the particular position you showed, it will be hard to break away. If however your left hand either made initial contact with the elbow or could be quickly slid onto the elbow, you gain some control of your attacker's body.

    Note, this is independent of the disarm. You can just shove, or keep control of the arm while kicking the knee, or maybe strike the attacker's right temple with your right arm (where his head goes he goes) while also shoving him off.

    Blocking the attacker's arm is step one, but getting away without getting sliced is another kettle of fish. I like what Blackeagle posted!

    Psychochips, sorry, but I can't quite picture what you are describing. Can you give it another try. You usually have good stuff so I want to understand your suggestion.

    Oh, one more for Mercop: You wrote, " I advocate ripping them down from behind,"

    Yes, if you can get from that position on the side without getting sliced. Again, if you can get your left hand onto the elbow, throw a punch with the right and go past the neck, maybe you can slide your right foot in back of his, twist to your left and take him down as your ridge hand smacks the larynx.

    All high risk of course. Better not to be there. Thwack him with your cane and ..... :))))

  8. #23
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  9. #24
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    I like where your mind is at, but you need to consider not having a pistol (well not "you" but anyone if for some reason they do not). I advocate ripping them down from behind, and kicking them into the head until they are no longer a threat. After all it is deadly force vs deadly force. No time for submission wrist locks etc.- George
    My response didn't involve a pistol, just breaking joints, we don't do "submission" against weapons ;). however, sometimes when we do the multiple attacker situation we go to a higher level where it is random attacks, unknown weapon and random attackers. Where yes you are still alert because you know its a drill BUT you are surrounded and you don't know who is going to attack, how many, or how they will attack you.

    That one is pretty tough in our training and usually results in the most bruises and "oops"s
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Hopefully this will shed some light-
    MODERN COMBATIVE SYSTEMS - Principle Based Response (PBR) to a Powerful Low Line Stab Video
    What I don't like about that is, there is nothing stopping the attacker from pulling away from the initial block. Its assuming your attacker is slow or untrained, which can be a deadly mistake. grabbing or some sort of control should be attempted right away, not just blocking open handed.
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  11. #26
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    +2 Mercop

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    O.K. That video is nice. I like that one and will play with it in the morning when I get to the gym.

    Maybe I'm not seeing something correctly but that approach in the video is a bit different from what you seemed to show in the still photo.

  12. #27
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    re: ctsketch

    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    What I don't like about that is, there is nothing stopping the attacker from pulling away from the initial block. Its assuming your attacker is slow or untrained, which can be a deadly mistake. grabbing or some sort of control should be attempted right away, not just blocking open handed.
    As you hit that nerve bundle on the arm near the elbow, he will start to pull back and rotate, at which point you are behind and if you bring your arm up you get to apply a choke from the back, maybe also a quick strike to the spine with your left hand --- at least that is how it looks in two dimensions on the computer.

    Again, my concern with the initial photo was that the block with both hands seemed to leave you with few options where you aren't vulnerable.

    The video and the still aren't quite the same maneuver???

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    "By not using his thumb he is able to redirect the attack and move to the outside as the attacker powers towards him by simply stepping to the outside. At this point is is able to get away, or finish his counter-attack from behind open handed, or draw a pistol"

    This seems logical to me. Spin away, spin around and shoot the BG.
    I notice though that the guy being attacked with his legs spread looks like he would get tripped up trying to get away.



    "Both are "minute in time" pictures and show students pressure testing the tactic at combat speed against 350,000 volt stun guns."

    So did the first guy get zapped?
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  14. #29
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    FYI this the favorite shank attack used in prison, they rarely even see it coming.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Psychophipps, sorry, but I can't quite picture what you are describing. Can you give it another try. You usually have good stuff so I want to understand your suggestion.
    This defense was based upon the assumption of the typical front leg stepping forward matching the thrusting right arm, the most common initial thrust with either a punch or a knife. Starting from the default position of arms down at your sides like you were just looking around. You sense a low-line hand attack coming at you from the front and step forward 45 degrees to the left while bringing your palms together like you're praying and sweeping your combined arms towards the left side of your body in a modified downward block as taught in many Karate-based systems. When the blade is (hopefully) deflected by the combined force of two hands and full-body movement, you lift your left elbow towards your left shoulder with the attacker's arm staying along the outside of your left forearm (a bit of the old "sticky hands" here) and twist your hips into a chop to the neck with the right hand. Overwrap of the knife arm with the left arm here was common to be followed by a knee to something fun.

    My Jujitsu class honestly taught us to just step in hollowed out with hands like Mercop teaches to follow the knife retraction after an attempted stabbing like this. Once there, it became our job to make sure that they were...distracted...by other events that precluded further hostilities.

    I've only done it in class as the only "knife defense" I've ever really had to do involved me kicking the knife out of the other guy's hand
    because he really sucked that bad.

    Of course, now I'm getting to really like how Michael Janich does this defense with the "Waiter's Block" and McCann has a good double-forearm gate example in his Combatives series. Janich's methodology seems to have more immediate tools available for countering than McCann's so I'm slightly leaning that way as of this post.

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