This is a discussion on Defending against the low line power stab within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Again, my concern with the initial photo was that the block with both hands seemed to leave you with few options ...
Yeah, if he's a knife noviceAs you hit that nerve bundle on the arm near the elbow, he will start to pull back and rotate
and hitting a nerve isn't guaranteed under stress, mistakes happen, he will be able to pull that arm back faster than you can get around to choke unless you are very quick.
First I am glad to see the conversation going on here.
The first pictures are not "staged". I took them during one of the many times they practiced the defense with the stun guns. What we teach are Principle Based Responses, not techniques. This is arguably the most powerful edged weapon attack angle you can face. During classes we have a much higher rate of success in an 8 hr class than I have seen in traditional martial arts classes with students who have been training for months or years using traditional techniques. That said there are still many traditional techniques I would used based on my background in traditional Ju Jitsu depending on the situation.
What do all out Principle Based Responses have in common?
They or based on "Oh Sh*t" responses, not even what most people call a startle response. The reason is that with edged weapons if you wait for your hands to come up and then back down to defend you are not going to do well against many edged weapon attacks.
They are intended to either put you to the outside, or open up the attackers middle for Central Nervous System attackers such ask palm strikes to the chin or elbows to the side/back of the head of the head.
If you are on the outside and can get a physcial barrier between you and the attacker, I see that as a much better option than fighting them. Especially if contact has been broken.
I know many people would like to believe differently but few people are going to have the stones to purposefully snap and elbow or break a knee. And if you are sitting there thinking to yourself "I would", how about your wife, sister, or teenage daughter. Because they don't have the mindset or ability to do that does it mean that they should not have any options at all? What most people are going to do in these situations are continue to ineffectively strike the body and head with a closed fist. And when that does not work task fixation will set in and they will just do it harder instead of transitional to an elbows until the attacker goes limp.
Saying you "Know" how you will respond to being attacked with a box cutter is the same as saying you "know" how you will respond to being involved in a car accident.
By adding the stress of the stun guns and other tools you force the student to realize there is no time to do it "right" and that you need to deal with the cards you are dealt.- George
What I liked with your video (not the still) was the relative ease with which you got behind the assailant. That opens up so many options including (if armed) a swift shoving kick in the a... and a second or two gained to draw.
Looking at the stabbing video again, I can't help but wonder if the extra push demonstrated by the assailant that allows for the pivot is very common. A lot of people push their punches rather than snap them but you won't see these same people trying to push a punch through a successful block, as an example. Is this pushing the thrust phenomenon common after a blocked knife thrust, or would they simply retract and give it another go as the prison videos I have seen seem to suggest? Knives being a tool-based attack, you really don't get much extra mileage from trying to grunt the thrust through like that.
Also, the Inverted-Edge grips are rapidly coming from the dark nether regions of the knife world and into fairly common knife discussion. How would you modify the aforementioned technique to keep this emergent grip technique from rendering your hands into hamburger as, in your words, you generally don't see the knife until it's too late?
I think that there are two options coming at you from this initial attack. Both are mentioned the hard thrust or the repeat stabbing.
In either situation, you need to get to the outside. My guess would be if the first stab was even somewhat successful or not they will grab you with the other hand and try to hold you in place so to speak to continue their attack. Most tend to train in the "here's the attack, do something with it" mode. I think my reaction may be to cover my midsection in a startle flinch, pass the arm toward the centerline of BG and strike the face/ear/neck/eye maybe a stun to the common peroneal(?) area of the leg to gain distance. From there it would be a draw, a run, a take cover, find a stick, etc.
That's what I THINK I may do. Ideally I want out of his center. Get to the outside and go from there.
"Put on the whole armor of God..."
Inverted Edge Tactics are the hardest to deal with, that is why we use them.- George
At least with your hand on the elbow you can still push off, which isn't possible with both or either hand only on the forearm.
I played with this scene a little yesterday. In the video the defender is actually starting off slightly to the attacker's left, and facing the attacker's right side to some extent. Perhaps instead of the defender attacking the knife arm as shown, a sharp strike to the upper forearm done as if a low block (I think in Krav it is block # 6) with the right arm would block, deflect, inflict pain and allow you to keep moving smoothly back away from the attacker.
Maybe just jump out of the way and land a side kick to the knee, ignore the knife, and run.
I am afraid that if the attacker is using IET and you ignore the knife and try to kick him you will likely end up with your femoral artery cut all the way up and through your nads just by them trying to avoid the kick.- George
That is why we teach SAS and IET.- George
One thing to keep in mind is that George teaches a technique that is easy to learn, easy to remember, and still works a lot better than most being taught out there. It's not the end all, be all of knife defense but something effective that you can toss at people without previous training along with a bunch of other stuff without their head blowing up.
If you're up against someone crazy like Southnarc or Michael Janich, your butt is in a sling anyway, right?
What little training I have with knife is based with Michael Janich's Concepts moves. What I like about this is you use the same basic moves with knife against knife or empty hand against knife. George I do not want to take away from what you are teaching but maybe viewing the clips of Michael's will help someone. This link will show the 1st of 4 titled Guerilla Video and I think there are 7 total clips of Michael's.
YouTube - MBC Guerrilla Video Volume 1: Concepts
Hope this helps someone
Last edited by Bill MO; May 20th, 2010 at 11:28 PM.
It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45
"Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes