Defending against the low line power stab - Page 4

Defending against the low line power stab

This is a discussion on Defending against the low line power stab within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Again I will proffer that you should train for Hannibal the Cannibal but the truth is that the vast majority of people who kill and ...

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Thread: Defending against the low line power stab

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Again I will proffer that you should train for Hannibal the Cannibal but the truth is that the vast majority of people who kill and injure others with edged weapons have little to no training but the will to kill. This leads to task fixation and cyclic attacks on their part such as repetitive cutting or stabbing.

    I still train the way I learned in the Army...Task, Standard, Conditions. These pictures were taken during an 8 hr class. Most had not previous training and at the end they did well against unstructured attacks by other students. And not just a pat on the back after surviving a training knife. When they train again I will be changing the conditions based on the student.

    A thought just came to me and I would like to ask a question, if you had four hours to train before being the victim of a violent knife assault would you rather spend it-

    Defending against a "knife fighter" with and visible blade in brightly lit room in a GI or, against someone who bones chickens, or carries a box cutter for a living, with a concealed knife, in a low light environment, wearing your street clothes?
    - George


    - George


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I have trained with Michael and I am familiar with his work. Michael is a talented man and has an incredible following but I believe we cater to two different audiences. I will give you and example-

    A few month back I was at the Southwest Alabama Police Academy in Mobile and taught a two day class, the first day was Spontaneous Attack Suppression for Edge Weapons and day two was Inverted Edge Tactics. There were officers from AL, MS, and FL. The reason they contacted me about doing a class was that several agencies requested edged weapons training but wanted it to apply to law enforcement. These guys were not going to attend weekly classes. At the end of the class I had to believe in my heart that knowing what I know about police work and dealing with people up close and personal that what I was teaching them could be relied upon under stress. There was no time for this hand goes here, this foot goes there. It had to be based off of the positions they will find themselves in working the street, not the training room. The class was a huge success.

    This is a very busy forum, mostly gun related issues. Mostly from people who carry guns because they are dedicated to protecting themselves and their family. Posts here about traditional martial arts get a little bit of attention but when it comes to things like realistic edged weapon defense...not so much. Since there are only really two types of weapons, edged, and impact it stands to reason that facing and edged weapon of some sort is a good possibility. My class can take that gun carries and give them a set of Principle Based Responses that they can have confidence in after pressure testing them in class. It may allow them create the time and space needed to deploy their pistol. Since we concentrate on the open hand, stick, knife, and pistol within seven yards we can also teach them how to bring the pistol into play as part of their over all system and not a stand alone skill set.

    The other thing is that when people start talking about edged weapons or heaven forbid "knife fighting" they conjur up images of them defending against terrorists with their favorite fixed blade or folder. And just like the pistol, if your contact distance response is to for your own tool during an attack you may just end up with a mutual slaying.

    I might have people in class on SAT for edged weapons and on SUN for pistol and the foundation of what we teach is the same.- George

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    My knife training was with Suarez International and they took the basic training concepts from Michael but then came up with their own program. Knife to knife you go after the nerves in arms and legs taking away the BG's ability to hold or fight with the knife and to put him on the ground. When going against BG without your knife you avoid the knife then control the knife arm and create time and distance to bring gun into play What ever you do or how you do it needs to be done as fast as possible so you can forget about #1 and look for the others with him. I am not there to fight a fight but to end it by winning.

    [QUOTE=mercop;1626456The other thing is that when people start talking about edged weapons or heaven forbid "knife fighting" they conjur up images of them defending against terrorists with their favorite fixed blade or folder. And just like the pistol, if your contact distance response is to for your own tool during an attack you may just end up with a mutual slaying.

    I might have people in class on SAT for edged weapons and on SUN for pistol and the foundation of what we teach is the same.- George[/QUOTE]

    What Suarez is teaching is also towards the gun guy and not so much for the strick knife fighter.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    SAS is open hands vs the knife because that is how it is going to be in real life, at least at first.- George

  5. #50
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    SAS is open hands vs the knife because that is how it is going to be in real life, at least at first.- George
    I agree with that, you will be caught behind the 8 ball in real life most times. You had better have the means to get into the fight.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  6. #51
    Member Array Threadbare's Avatar
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    I like the "ripping the head down" thing. Most of my knife training has been with Tom Sotis and I've seen several times where he gets to the outside and grab his opponents face from behind with both hands, then drops into a full squat while slamming (simulated) the guys head into the deck. Good stuff.

  7. #52
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    h2h-- re: Threadbare-- its gettin hot here in TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadbare View Post
    I like the "ripping the head down" thing. Most of my knife training has been with Tom Sotis and I've seen several times where he gets to the outside and grab his opponents face from behind with both hands, then drops into a full squat while slamming (simulated) the guys head into the deck. Good stuff.
    Agree but have noticed something the last few days I'd not considered before. Gosh, it is getting hot here in Texas, and stuff you can do when your opponent isn't covered in sweat sometimes doesn't work at all when the heat is on. "Ripping the head down" might just result in your fingers sliding down a greased up sweaty face, no grip, no real damage unless you get your nails dug in despite the grease--uh, natural lubricant.

    I'm not going to claim a choke from the rear as superior, I just want to suggest that we all need to take skin grease and moisture into account in our moves.

    Yeah, its a yucky subject, but down here--- May to October-- it is real.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Agree but have noticed something the last few days I'd not considered before. Gosh, it is getting hot here in Texas, and stuff you can do when your opponent isn't covered in sweat sometimes doesn't work at all when the heat is on. "Ripping the head down" might just result in your fingers sliding down a greased up sweaty face, no grip, no real damage unless you get your nails dug in despite the grease--uh, natural lubricant.

    I'm not going to claim a choke from the rear as superior, I just want to suggest that we all need to take skin grease and moisture into account in our moves.

    Yeah, its a yucky subject, but down here--- May to October-- it is real.
    Doing Brazilian Jujitsu down in Southest Texas, I feel your pain.

    Excellent places to grab are their shoulders, under the chin, eye sockets, and the nose (no, really). Rather than simply pulling back and down where they might step backwards and pivot, I prefer to actually kick the back of one of their knees with an inside of the foot turned to face up stomping kick to break their base before pulling them down to make even the flimsiest t-shirt a viable handle.

  9. #54
    Member Array Threadbare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Agree but have noticed something the last few days I'd not considered before. Gosh, it is getting hot here in Texas, and stuff you can do when your opponent isn't covered in sweat sometimes doesn't work at all when the heat is on. "Ripping the head down" might just result in your fingers sliding down a greased up sweaty face, no grip, no real damage unless you get your nails dug in despite the grease--uh, natural lubricant.

    I'm not going to claim a choke from the rear as superior, I just want to suggest that we all need to take skin grease and moisture into account in our moves.

    Yeah, its a yucky subject, but down here--- May to October-- it is real.
    I understand where your coming from. Spent last weekend in Orange, TX doing Suarez's 0-5 ft pistol class and the heat was ungodly. Low 90's with very high humidity. This was all CQB stuff with intent of creating distance to get to a firearm. I try to train with mindset of multiple adversaries, and the idea of spending time breaking down the base or seeking the perfect contact point on an opponent while his homies are keying in makes me paranoid. Sweaty or not, sinking your fingers into someones orbital cavity area or even fishhooking him if that so happens will get you what you need. But then again, it depends on the situation. I am a firm believer in walk-throughs to set yourself for the next dirtbag(s).

  10. #55
    Member Array Threadbare's Avatar
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    As far as the low line stab, I still have trouble dealing with this. If trained in a hard contact type drill, for me it's difficult. You've got retraction to think about as well as possibly being completely reactive to the attack. What if two or three guys are working in concert and and the knifer's buddies tie up your arms from the sides or behind? This can be drilled over and over in the partial arts dojo but unless your training is reality based your setting yourself up to get ventilated. Sotis, Crafty Dog, Janich and others teach some version of a hard crossblock, (split x, hard x, dogcatcher etc.) but if a guy is trying to imitate a singer sewing machine you've got to deal with that. A buddy of mine is big into the peketi stuff and advocates a 45 degree downward sweep/redirect with the accompanying footwork to flank but that doesn't take into account enviromental conditions, terrain etc. I guess once you block/redirect or whatever you need to be trying to eyegouge/strike/disarm or whatever presents itself. Anyhow, for me this is still one of hardest things to train for especially if your training buddies are are keeping it real. By the way, the stun gun thing is killer.

  11. #56
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    In the video series "Die Less Often" from Gabe Suarez, Dog Brother Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny (and Gabe) teach the Dog Catcher which is extremely simple and highly effective against a wide range of knife (or impact weapon) attacks.

    It uses the same (from the attacker's weapon) side arm under/inside with the offside arm is over in a split-X. The Dog Catcher can be used to meet a high, mid, or low-line strike or thrust without having to analyze or decide which -- the idea is to get something that works well when you are BEHIND the reaction curve and just have to STOP the INITIAL ATTACK.

    One of the KEYS however is this must be done with forward pressure and the block is immediately followed by (really CONTINUED into) a head butt to his chin and control of the arm, passing the arm under for low strikes, or passing under his weapon arm (for high strikes etc).

    Once behind the knife arm, either empty hand techniques can be used OR a push off is used to get distance for either running or accessing one's own weapon.

    Pressure and the head butt take care of the retraction issue much more reliably than initially grabbing the arm. You are not trying to fight the retraction, but rather filling up the space of any retraction.

    If I only had (or could only teach) one empty hand defense against a sudden knife attack at full speed against a fully resisting opponent this is the one I would keep.

    An overriding lesson of the video series is that even if you are armed with your own weapon you must first deal with the COMBATIVES problem of an attack in progress before you can present your weapon to turn it into a firearm or knife fight.

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    HerbM

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Many don't realize how much of a factor sweat plays in H2H. It makes me change my tactics quite a bit when I spar with a sweaty opponent (we usually do 3-5 sessions in a row with different opponents and very little break in between, we learn to fight sweaty and tired this way.)
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  13. #58
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    ctsketch, right about sweat, this can also happen during a fight due to blood as well.

    Depending on grabbing is an iffy proposition much of the time, and may be an actively poor tactic (although I do it some too) if it gets you focused on holding (i.e., monkey gripped) or since the tension lets your opponent know too much about your balance, body position, and strength.

    Grabs need to be quick and rapidly lead to something (e.g., a takedown or disarm) or they can quickly deteriorate into his flailing the knive around and just chopping you up while you hold onto him like a bucking horse.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    if it gets you focused on holding (i.e., monkey gripped) or since the tension lets your opponent know too much about your balance, body position, and strength.
    Agreed, the natural response to being pulled is to pull back (unless you've been trained otherwise)
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerbM View Post
    ctsketch, right about sweat, this can also happen during a fight due to blood as well.

    Depending on grabbing is an iffy proposition much of the time, and may be an actively poor tactic (although I do it some too) if it gets you focused on holding (i.e., monkey gripped) or since the tension lets your opponent know too much about your balance, body position, and strength.

    Grabs need to be quick and rapidly lead to something (e.g., a takedown or disarm) or they can quickly deteriorate into his flailing the knive around and just chopping you up while you hold onto him like a bucking horse.
    Hey Herb, I agree 100% that grabbing or attaching yourself to someone armed with a knife is shady at best. We've done drills with folder in pocket and one opponent sinking in a rear naked choke while another opponent circled around throwing in kicks and punches. Most of these wound up on the ground and everyone was able to consistently acess and open their "blade" to begin cuttin and stabbin on their opponents. Last thing I would attemp would be to grab onto or try to choke someone with a live knife in his hand. Just not that good yet I guess.

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