This is a discussion on Defending against the low line power stab within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My point is that effective defense against typical criminal edged weapons isn't some Holy Grail of martial arts knowledge. mercop, SouthNarc, and Michael Janich (just ...
My point is that effective defense against typical criminal edged weapons isn't some Holy Grail of martial arts knowledge. mercop, SouthNarc, and Michael Janich (just to name a few) are regularly teaching Regular Joes (not to mention law enforcement and military personnel) without any previous or limited martial arts training simple, effective unarmed techniques against edged weapons that take all of a 4 to 8 hour block to get down to a reasonable level against aggressive, full power attacks.
Heck, mercop even backs it up with a "Block this or get tazed in the nutz!" performance enhancement. Ask unloved!
It can make short and quick slashing attacks. hands are in fact quicker than the eye...So what about a 3-4 inch folder makes it so hard to get in?
I don't think anyone said it was...its actually pretty basic, even the white belts can get it down, the key is just practice. However in a 4-8 hour block you may learn a couple ways to defend against one or 2 kinds of knife strikes. but after a longer period you may learn 5 or 6 ways to defend against various types of knife attacks. The more weapons you have at your disposal the better.My point is that effective defense against typical criminal edged weapons isn't some Holy Grail of martial arts knowledge.
Defending against the low line power stab
This is pretty much the committed (i.e., power) attack intended to kill (or do grievous injury at least.)
Stop the attack with both arms; apply pressure; try to get in a head butt; get under the arm or otherwise control it; advance the position to an armbar, takedown, or other disarm OR push off for distance to run or access your own weapon.
Unsurprising since you, Randy, are a Suarez staff instructor and the Dog Catcher was developed by Dog Brother Marc Denny at Gabe's instigation.
If anyone develops a simple or more reliable defense against such attacks (or against a wider variety of attacks) than the Dog Catcher then I want to learn it.
Strikes MAY help during some stages of this defense (technically the head butt is a form of strike for instance) but they are not generally the main element, nor are strikes generally effective against an committed attack such as we are describing -- since even if they 'work' the likelihood of getting cut badly is very high.
psychophipps: You are correct about this not being some mystical activity -- the Dog Catcher is taught effectively in 1-2 days even to non-martial artists or can be learned from the videos with some practice.
Generally (from what I have seen on the videos, and there is a lot of student practice there to see) it is the POLICE officers who (as a class) have the most trouble with these techniques -- they tend to "go for the gun" while still under the rush attack -- even if they get the gun deployed (usually not) they get 'severely wounded' too.
One of the beauties of the Dog Catcher is that is works (i.e., you die less often) for slashing attacks too.
It is not a panacea, but it is a simple technique that can be learned in a few hours to a couple of days, and that can be shown to work against uncooperative opponents at full speed.
And this is the problem with internet communication. Words do not mean the same to everyone because everyone has their own individual frame of reference.
LOW LINE POWER STAB.
That is what TYPE of attack.
Not HOW commited it is. Not what kind of forward pressure he is applying to it.
I can low line power stab with my feet planted without much forward drive.
Or I can low line power stab with all of my weight behind it while lunging and overtaking your position.
Those are drasticly different. One can be countered with an "alternate X" or even a "Stop-hit" (sometimes simultaneous blocks and strikes do work) . The other will likely need a "Spread X" type block to stop it before anything else is attempted. See the difference?
I can throw a low line power stab while not really EXPECTING there to be any resistance. In that case if the "victim" throws a simultaneous block with one arm and strike to my face with the other it may change my channel.
On the other hand I could also throw a low line power stab with ZERO regard for what you will do to counter it because the ONLY thing on my mind is hitting you as hard as I can as many times as I can, no matter what you do to me. A "stop hit" is very unlikely to stop that attack.
Those are drasticly different types of attack and come from drasticly different mindsets. But they are BOTH "Low Line Power Stabs". And that is why we need terms defined better.
If my attacker has ANY sense of self preservation then he has a weakness I can exploit. If he does not care what happens to him...then my job just got even harder than it was to begin with. So we need to define the terms more narrowly to paint a more thorough picture before we start dismissing techniques as useless.
Since you have trained with Tom Sotis (you mentioned AMOK previously) then you probably know the difference between the different levels of pressure and different levels of focus. THAT was my point. Depending on their focus level (from Wide External all the way to Narrow Internal) they may be more or less succeptible to strikes getting their attention and changing their channel. But making blanket declarative statements to the effect of "striking won't work" is just not born out in reality. As with everything....It all depends on the particular circumstances.
The question I was posting in regards to is whether strikes can have a fight stopping effect on a guy with a knife. To answer that we need to know what his level of focus or commitment is. That was my point.
I have at least a little perspective on this subject having trained more than once with all three guys mentioned-Marc Denny, Southnarc and Tom Sotis. In fact I host Tom's seminars here in Chattanooga on a continuing basis.
My point was simply that not all is either black or white. It is mostly varying shades of gray. I think we all agree that trying to do something offensive (your gun /knife/fists ) without first dealing with the knife attack with empty hands is generally not going to get the best results. Other than that ......you never know.
I've seen someone survive a knife attack by simply clamping on to the attacker's weak hand and slinging him around in a circle. The centripetal force kept the knifer from reaching the "victim" and the spinning the attacker around in a circle made him dizzy and he eventually staggered off. Is that anything you'll see taught anywhere? I doubt it, but it was somewhat effective...at least in THAT particular instance.
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so many interesting thoughts here, thank you for such diversity.
One consideration given to me in my training was that most (not all) knife wielders have a midset that engenders the "I have a knife so I have an edge and they will be terrorized". This is so often reinforced in the media (hollywood) it makes me ill. In any event, most do not expect aggressive resistance or better yet rapid movement towards them so this can be to your advantage in providing an adequate response time window as well as their developing surprise and acknowlegement that they are the one under threat (both good things). So, while I have some grabs and come alongs and weapon deprivation skills in my bag of tricks, I still practice deflection/attack/escape as my primary response. Since the attack portion are pretty damaging potentially (heck, they have one arm out busy with what they think is the "big scary knife") my job is to avoid as possible, damage as rapidly, escape quickly.
How the person stands, how they carry themselves, the blade, the type of knife may signal a much different approach. Then its gonna hurt but my tactics will unlikely change much as my window is so small and my training scope reduced (at my age).
Last edited by 1980Maico440; June 3rd, 2010 at 04:50 PM. Reason: oops
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Good thoughts Cruel Hand Luke. I think too many people fail to totally comprehend that if the knife can move it can injure/kill you. That means you not only need to block/evade/gain control but keep control. We have found that by using the stun guns in training it keeps people honest and shows that variable are many in any situation, especially those involving the dynamic movement of the human body.- George