Defending against the low line power stab

Defending against the low line power stab

This is a discussion on Defending against the low line power stab within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is one of the most deadly attacks you can face with an edged weapon. Here is a student showing us exactly what not to ...

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Thread: Defending against the low line power stab

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Defending against the low line power stab

    This is one of the most deadly attacks you can face with an edged weapon. Here is a student showing us exactly what not to do. This is exactly what someone with no exposure to training will do. They will respond by being up on their toes, leaning forward, and grab hold of the weapon hand. There is a good chance that they will first make contact with their strong hand thumb and possibly breaking it or at least hyper extending it. When the thumb are involved in a grip the muscles have two choices....push or pull. In this case neither works and task fixation sets in and they are stuck on the X and usually just ride the weapon into their stomach.



    Here is a picture of a student (Stormin Normin) defending against the same attack. He is using our Principle Based Response. He extends the base of his palms creating a hard target for the forearm of the attacker to smash into. Although this really hurts the attacker in training in real life what is makes it effective is hitting a huge nerve bundle inside the forearm. This often leads to a dropped weapon. By not using his thumb he is able to redirect the attack and move to the outside as the attacker powers towards him by simply stepping to the outside. At this point is is able to get away, or finish his counter-attack from behind open handed, or draw a pistol.



    Both are "minute in time" pictures and show students pressure testing the tactic at combat speed against 350,000 volt stun guns.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Good stuff. Deflect the weapon first, then worry about control.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    There are two things you can do with energy, suppress it or redirect it. We always try to redirect it and move to the outside.- George

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    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Great post, things I want to remember and practice.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    In this situation sometimes I choose to redirect and step to the side and rotate towards the attacker while securing the wrist. from there you can either attempt to break the arm or reverse and twist the wrist to make them let go of the weapon.

    Or you can take it as a block in the 2nd picture, although I prefer a cross armed block which allows me to quickly secure the wrist after blocking, if the posture of the attacker is poor it also allows for a quick to the lower or mid section.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    One of our principles is to move through the attacker and look for the next threat, fight like a cat to get away, not like a dog to win. Once you are in a good position all previous training comes into play.

    I am a Ju Jitsu guy but have little faith in wrist locks attempted by someone without LOTS of training, and even less for someone with LOTS of training doing it to someone who is sweaty/bloody. The wrist is the last stop on the arms, if you miss or slip you need to reestablish contact. YMMV- George

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I probably practice this maneuver no less than 20 times a week while in class (with fake knives of various lengths) and it is fairly easy to first grab near the wrist while rotating and slide to the wrist and secure it with a second hand as well. I've done this in both sweaty and dry conditions. Practice practice practice.
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    A bunch of posts -- mine at least-- disappeared yesterday.

    I asked, "what next?"

    Here's what I see as problematic with this, and why the "what next" is important.

    BOTH of the defender's hands are open on the attackers arm, thumbs open as should be. Yet, a quick clockwise rotation of the attacker's arm would bring the right hand away from the defender and the knife hand up to where it could strike the defender's body or neck.

    With both hands on the attacker like that, you have almost no control over the attacker and if you try to let go with your right hand to grab your own weapons you will get stabbed.

    Mercop is basically right though when he says that, " I am a Ju Jitsu guy but have little faith in wrist locks attempted by someone without LOTS of training, and even less for someone with LOTS of training doing it to someone who is sweaty/bloody."

    So, what's the next move?

    I have things in mind but want to hear what others might suggest before posting them.

    I hope my question yesterday wasn't misinterpreted somehow and cause for the start of a typing war. I posted early in the morning, and when I came back to look late afternoon, my post was gone as were all but one other.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    So, what's the next move?
    I hinted at the next move, as a Jujutsu guy as well who also has defense against weapons drills in his dojo there are many things you can do, What the forearm or wrist grab is a transition, you don't just hold or stay there, you are there for a split second and you must move quickly. usually WHILE doing a cross armed block I simultaneously kick depending on the posture of the attacker, if they are inc lose a headbutt will do. at the same time (if I am cross arm blocking) my right hand is flopping over and taking the wrist of the attacker.

    Revers the wrist and rotate and you can either break the arm or take them to the ground.

    The smoother scenario is the one I described where you step to the side, turning towards the attackers while grabbing the wrist. Here is an old pic of me....



    it is actually a bad picture, my form is bad, i'm bending over, only one arm securing, and I am too far away. But this also serves as another example.... when you are tired form breaks down, you get sloppy. This picture was done during a drill where 3 attackers surround you and attack with bats and knives, and you after you take maybe about.....20 attacks, you cycle and become one of the attackers. I could barely stand by the end. it forces you not only to think creatively but to learn to fight tired and stressed.

    I usually follow this move by transitioning to this...

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I have seen too many lost time injuries in LE by guys trying to stop energy with their thumbs. Several times it would have left the office unable to use his pistol or baton. People responded a bit differently after grabbing resulted in getting stunned in the hand.

    What is next in this once you get to the outside it to get a physical barrier between you if one is close. Or what I prefer is to pull the attacker down backwards and continue to kick them in the head until they drop the knife. After all you are using open hands vs deadly force. Another option is as they move forward you face plant them into a vertical surface to smash their face and crank back on the elbow to hyper extend/snap it.- George

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Maybe i'll have one of the other instructors video taping me doing various knife take downs sometime... there is no surefire move. it is not good just to learn set responses but instead learn principles to apply.... like...gain control of the fore arm or wrist....get out of the path of the blade, stay facing the opponent... use all of your weapons (head, elbows, legs). as a last resort, block slashes with the outside of the forearms (the bony part) not the inside fleshy part.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    The two biggest problems with edged weapon defense are these-

    1) Starting defenses upon seeing the knife. This seldom happens in real life.
    2) Using training knives that are two to three times the size of those you will face in the street. Think box cutters and steak knives (often with rounded tips because you can carry them in your pocket or purse without them poking through)

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    1) Starting defenses upon seeing the knife. This seldom happens in real life.
    Elaborate?

    2) Using training knives that are two to three times the size of those you will face in the street. Think box cutters and steak knives (often with rounded tips because you can carry them in your pocket or purse without them poking through)
    that is why you train with multiple weapons like I stated.
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    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Although this really hurts the attacker in training...
    Hurts quite a lot. Hence my forearm pads. They don't help much, though.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    whats a few bruises to obtains some skills ?
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