Point Shoot Practice

This is a discussion on Point Shoot Practice within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't think recoil has much to do with it, if you are accustomed to shooting the gun. I'm much much better at it for ...

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Thread: Point Shoot Practice

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I don't think recoil has much to do with it, if you are accustomed to shooting the gun. I'm much much better at it for example with a .357 than I am a 9mm. But, I've shot a .357 way more than a 9mm.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dan View Post
    This is why there is a 19% hit rate, and don't kid yourself, that would be true for any of us.
    Last week, I was at the National Tactical Invitational. In addition to some very good scenario based training, they also offer a series of interesting lectures. One of them was by Paul Gomez (who is not an advocate of point shooting). He mentioned that a large law enforcement agency in Massachusetts recently switched it's firearms training program completely over to classic Fairburn/Sykes/Applegate point shooting, which was state of the art for point shooting 70 years ago but is probably less advanced than what you would learn today from someone like Roger. Before this switch, the agency's hit rate was in the mid-teens, below the already dismal national average. Since then, the hit rate for guys who have gone through the new training program is 80% (with enough shootings for this number to be statistically valid). The ~20% hit rate we hear so often for law enforcement is not graven in stone and it can be raised a lot with the proper training.
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  4. #33
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    kelcarry,

    Practice with a .22 is not only cheaper, but trains the muscles. It transfers, very well to the heavy calibers.

    Here is a drill that you can do with your .38 that will immediately improve your shooting. It speaks to Trigger Control
    DOWN RANGE TELEVISION with Michael Bane - DOWN RANGE TV - DRTV

    Dry firing once or twice a week will also help. Do it for only ten minutes or so, otherwise you get tired and lose the edge.

  5. #34
    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    Never mind your eyes. Never mind the gun. You do not aim with your eye. You aim with your mind.

    Look at the target. Only the target, both eyes open.

    If that doesnt scream "Use the force, Luke" I dont know what does.

    Glad I read this post. I had heard of point shooting but didnt know what it was. Are you still holding the gun up at "eye level" for point shooting?

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post

    Glad I read this post. I had heard of point shooting but didnt know what it was. Are you still holding the gun up at "eye level" for point shooting?
    Depends on the situation. Usually you have the gun about an inch below your line if sight. However, if the target is close enough to pull off a gun grab if you hand the gun to him at full extension, you start bringing the gun further down and in.
    Chris Upchurch - Suarez International Staff Instructor
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  7. #36
    Member Array Ken Grant's Avatar
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    Anyone have any suggestions or drills that will help better Eye/hand coordination ?

  8. #37
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    mrjam2jab,

    I never hold the gun at eye level. I do not care what the gun looks like. I want to keep my eyes on the target.
    I hold the gun nearer to my waist.

    Ken Grant,

    Ken,

    You have been practicing Eye/hand coordination since you were a baby. You should have it down.

  9. #38
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    mrjam2jab,

    It is kind of Zen like. Just wait until everything comes together for the first time. You will feel the force. LOL

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    This is a little OT "But.........

    I have been in Roger's PSP class and learned how to point shoot, but like Roger says see what you have to see to make the shot. At 3-5 yds, half and 3/4 hip work for me. As the distance increase the gun needs to come up and into the peripheral vision more. At some point you will need to go to sights, at least front sight,most likely in the 10-15 yds range.

    For those who think Point Shooting a waste of ammo and time, I challenge you to go to a FOF class and try your sighted perfect sight picture, weaver stance against a armed BG with airsoft. I just got back from doing a day of FOF with 2 others who had no Point shooting training. Before leaving for the day they stated they had not seen their sights except for one guy who said he saw his one time as he was swinging the gun towards the BG. Both said they had to learn to point shoot that it was the only way to make solid hits on the BG and not get hit yourself.

    I am a firm believer in FOF it will show you if what you think will work does, both in your training and equipment.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  11. #40
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    What works for you. Works for you. I brace both of my elbows into my ribs and shoot bowling pins down at fifteen yards. It is not necessary to shoot parallel to the ground to get a hit in the head of the target. Point your finger at it, and shoot it.

    You can shoot up, down, or sideways. If you point your finger at a spot, that is where the bullet will strike.

    What does OP, mean?

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Fixed should have been OT "off topic"
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  13. #42
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    The ~20% hit rate we hear so often for law enforcement is not graven in stone and it can be raised a lot with the proper training.
    When departments use" practice for qualification" as the majority of their training then it is easy to see how they might have terribly low hit ratios. The skills used in "combat oriented bullseye shooting" are not always exactly the same skills that are used in an actual armed confrontation. I have been on many a range in many different places and have never seen a cardboard or paper target look for witnesses and then begin to manuever to get closer to the shooter while the cardboard reaches for it's own gun......So if you do not have a LARGE percentage of your training time focusing on working against live opponents in REALISTIC situations then when the real thing happens it looks nothing like "practice".

    On the other hand we must also remember that not every police officer involved in a shooting is what we would consider a "gunfighter". The majority are NOT "gun guys", do not spend an inordinate amount of time practicing their shooting skills, and do not really care about spending a lot of time practicing. So even if we operate under the assumption that you CAN get to a point of shooting mastery that you can run the gun at a subconscious level, the simple fact is that most people (even cops) are not going to put in the time and effort to get to that level.

    So what can we do? Well for starters we can teach from the context of the actual fight, not from the context of a bullseye match. We also need to make sure there is a high level of physical( verbal and nonverbal communication) interaction in realistic scenario work so the student can begin to build a "rolodex" of experiences that they can draw from later when confronted with something similar in the real world. That way when their reptile brain looks for a solution to the problem they are confronted with they will have (hopefully) a similar experience in their training where they had to solve this problem. Then they are not overwhelmed by the rapidly evolving situation and can focus on solving the problem...NOT on determining WHAT the problem is, HOW it can be solved , WHY it is happening to them , and WHEN it is appropriate to go for their gun. Instead they just access the probable solution and run that torque profile.

    But if ALL they do is shoot qualification courses then it is no surprise when they have low hit ratios when they are dealing with live adversaries. The problem they trained for does not look like the problems they have to solve in the real world. And THAT is far more likely the reason they do not score more hits in shootings than the way they are actually manipulating the gun. If ALL you ever do is shoot stationary paper targets from full extension then you are not practicing for what you will actually face....unless you are just practicing to be a participant in a firing squad.
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  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Well I followed up with hints from previous posts and everytime I do point shoot I seem to do a little better. At 3-4 yds, I seem to be able to put my 38 and 380 within a1-3 inch circle, which makes me feel good since I, quite frankly, will not be pulling a firearm out much beyond that distance--I will be avoiding that distance to literally any extent I can thru good situational awarness and have never, in 68 years been in a position where a firearm has ever even been necessary--yes there is what if. Beyond that distance--say 5-7 yards, the circle becomes a bit bigger but still within a target that basically measures my body mass shoulder to shoulder and shoulder to hip--so its not like I'm "missing". I think it comes down to grip and gun control--I believe my grip is correct but I am very dominant right-handed. Comments?

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Some people train point shooting for target shooting, some people train point shooting for trick shooting (bowling pins at 15 yards using only one position,) and some people train point shooting for self defense.

    These three very different perspectives should never be confused or compared.

    I teach and train for one thing......the true dynamics of a fight. "The fight will be what the fight will be." You do not get to choose the fight that shows up at your door. The only way to be as good as you can possibly be inside of a fight is by training with an open mind, with good knowledge about the dynamics of a fight, and with fluid versatile concepts.

    Target/trick shooting is fun, but it has very little to do with fighting for your life.

  16. #45
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    *"You do not get to choose the fight that shows up at your door. " - Sweatnbullets -

    Sure you do.

    It's called situational awareness. Never step into a gun fight if you do not have too. Take a look around the parking lot of the mall, restaurant, or any other place. Run a quick scan. If your gut sees trouble, step back inside, and drop a dime on the cops. They will respond with overwhelming force, and thank you for the opportunity.

    If someone tries to break into your house while you are there. Have a plan. Involve everybody in the household. You should have every confidence that you have prepped the battle ground so that you have an overwhelming advantage. If they get through the dead bolts, what will they do about the dogs? If they defeat the dogs, what will they do about the shotgun? If they defeat one shotgun, what will they do about the second shotgun?

    Press the mutants into the fight immediately and violently. Make them understand quickly, that this is not about Home Invasion, it is about Homicide.

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