Point Shoot Practice

This is a discussion on Point Shoot Practice within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; And as Tyson said..."Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." The point is NO ONE is 100% situationally aware 100% of ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    And as Tyson said..."Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

    The point is NO ONE is 100% situationally aware 100% of the time.

    That would mean NO ONE has EVER snuck up on you, you were NEVER sick,you were never task fixated on something else as someone walked up to you without you noticing until they got with 2 steps of you, you were NEVER surprised by anyone or anything, you have NEVER been in an auto accident where someone else hit you(other wise you'd have avoided it) or any number of other things that pretty well prove that you are never 100% sure of knowing in advance.

    If someone walks into the mall food court and pulls out a rifle and starts shooting that may leave you in a fight you did not choose to be in. If you are a police officer and you pull someone over and as you walk to their car they stick a gun out the window and begin shooting that is not a fiught you chose. Those are just 2 that HAVE HAPPENED IN THE REAL WORLD that I could think of without much effort.

    So no....you do not always get to pick the fight. You can do all you reasonably can through making good lifestyle choices, avoiding the "3 stupids"(stupid people, stupid places, stupid things)avoiding drugs, whores and booze, and by paying attention to your surroundings, but you cannot CONTROL other people's actions and sometimes they start the fight without asking if you are ready.
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  3. #47
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    I am doomed.

  4. #48
    Member Array redline4200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    I am doomed.
    You have stated the real facts for most of us.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    *"You do not get to choose the fight that shows up at your door. " - Sweatnbullets -
    I will stand behind this statement.

    Situational awareness will only take you so far. It will most likely get you deselected, which is a very good thing. But the bad guys are not stupid. They are looking to get the drop on you and they will get their chances because there is no way to be situationally aware all of the time.

    It is a myth to believe that you will always see the fight coming due to situational awareness. This myth was perpetuated historically by the "stand and deliver with hard focus on the front sight" crowd in order to make people believe that was all that was needed inside of self defense.

    While it is very important it is not all that it has been cracked up to be by those that preach the "this is all that you will ever need" limited technique focused crowd.

  6. #50
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    *redline4200,

    Thank you.

    "But the bad guys are not stupid." - Sweatnbullets -

    Sure they are. Ask any Cop. They hear the same tired stories from the mutants time after time. "Oh No Officer. That dope is not mine. These are my cousin's pants."

    Despite clear and usually repeated warnings, that they have the right to remain silent. The mutants jabber on, and confess. In real life the bad guys are never going to be faced with the career decision, Armed Robbery or Accept the Scholarship to MIT.

    "They are looking to get the drop on you and they will get their chances because there is no way to be situationally aware all of the time. " - Sweatnbullets -

    Quite true. Thus the range time I put in. I will draw against the drop. Further, I will draw against the drop against multiple mutants. It takes the average guy 1.5 seconds to pull a trigger from when the command to do so is sent by the brain. I know to an absolute certainty that I can draw and fire two rounds into his face in 1.2 seconds without sights.

    That is entirely due to point shooting, or as you call it, "trick shooting (bowling pins at 15 yards using only one position,)" There is not a round that I fire that could not be named homicide, and sent automatically by muscle memory.

    One thing that you will never see me do is run backward, firing one handed at a stationary target trying to develop, "fluid versatile concepts"

    I will stand my ground, feet planted, face the mutant as a stable weapons platform, and take the tenth of a second that I need to put the him down.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    It takes the average guy 1.5 seconds to pull a trigger from when the command to do so is sent by the brain. I know to an absolute certainty that I can draw and fire two rounds into his face in 1.2 seconds without sights.
    What makes you think that the guy trying to rob you will be "average"? For that matter, what makes you think there will only be one guy?
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  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Some of the previous posts rightfully point out that situational awareness is not the be all and end all of personal safety--there is always that "what if" that I pointed out in some of my comments. Having said the above and having lived most of my life in the NY/NJ area--not the garden of eden and love thy neighbor--in 68 years nothing, nada, never, --need for anything approaching a firearm---as a wise man said in a previous post ---no 3 'stupids" and no whores, drugs etc --the firearm is at the very end of a long line of personal defense/avoidance/awareness options that I have and if, god forbid, that is where I am, it will be excellence in point shooting that will be the difference--IMO

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Black Oak;1652967
    "But the bad guys are not stupid." - Sweatnbullets -

    Sure they are. Ask any Cop. They hear the same tired stories from the mutants time after time. "Oh No Officer. That dope is not mine. These are my cousin's pants."

    Despite clear and usually repeated warnings, that they have the right to remain silent. The mutants jabber on, and confess. In real life the bad guys are never going to be faced with the career decision, Armed Robbery or Accept the Scholarship to MIT.

    "They are looking to get the drop on you and they will get their chances because there is no way to be situationally aware all of the time. " - Sweatnbullets -

    Quite true. Thus the range time I put in. I will draw against the drop. Further, I will draw against the drop against multiple mutants. It takes the average guy 1.5 seconds to pull a trigger from when the command to do so is sent by the brain. I know to an absolute certainty that I can draw and fire two rounds into his face in 1.2 seconds without sights.

    That is entirely due to point shooting, or as you call it, "trick shooting (bowling pins at 15 yards using only one position,)" There is not a round that I fire that could not be named homicide, and sent automatically by muscle memory.

    One thing that you will never see me do is run backward, firing one handed at a stationary target trying to develop, "fluid versatile concepts"

    I will stand my ground, feet planted, face the mutant as a stable weapons platform, and take the tenth of a second that I need to put the him down.[/QUOTE]




    Since it looks as if I took this tread off topic I want apologize and say I am sorry to kelcarry.


    With that said "Black Oak" If you think that what you are doing and training will work in the real wold SHTF "PROVE IT". If nothing else at least prove it to yourself in a FOF. My findings in my FOF classes were that in a stand your ground and both draw both get shot and most likely both will die. (and I also know how to point shoot and I can draw and make hit in at least 1 sec and the other guy did not). If you draw on a BG with gun already on you unless you move off the line of the gun or move his gun in some way you will get shot. Again you will most likely shot him too but you will get shot. I don't know about you but I don't want to take a hit and will train to keep that to a minmum.

    Before FOF I thought some of the same things as you, but the FOF class showed that it didn't work. So again I say prove it to yourself.

    Kelcarry with that I am done posting on this tread!!

    Sorry again for taking it away from learning to Point Shoot.

    Back again just found this thread and show how you will not always see it coming or be the first to act.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...o-florida.html
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  10. #54
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    Kelcarry,
    I'll since you have not received an answer to your question I will answer it.

    Most likely it is not a problem with your eyes or the point you are focused on but you are a victim of the long trigger pulls of your carry guns. Shooting low and to the left is indicative of starting with a neutral grip and squeezing of the grip as you continue through the trigger pull. This causes the barrel of the gun to dip. Then add in the fact that if you are not bringing the trigger straight to the rear as you continue through your trigger pull will move the point of impact either left or right depending on how much of the trigger finger you are using.

    This is the reason behind the convulsive grip as the grip is solid prior to the trigger pull and keeps the gun from shifting during the trigger pull. The actual amount of pressure necessary to control the gun is dependent on the person and the weapon system being used.

    Also the convulsive grip flexes the muscles in the arm, shoulder, and chest which aids in controlling recoil when firing burst of 3 or more rounds. The faster I pull the trigger the tighter my grip becomes.
    Last edited by 7677; June 9th, 2010 at 04:50 PM.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    He mentioned that a large law enforcement agency in Massachusetts recently switched it's firearms training program completely over to classic Fairburn/Sykes/Applegate point shooting, which was state of the art for point shooting 70 years ago but is probably less advanced than what you would learn today from someone like Roger.
    This not exactly accurate. I had the pleasure of teaching a threat focused carbine class at the Massachusetts Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors conference with Matt Temkin a little over a year ago and the large department Gomez was referring had several attendees and instructors at the conference and they have been teaching point shooting for over five years.

    Moreover, the material that was taught at this conference was more advanced then what you would learn from Roger as there was the full range of both threat focused and sighted fire classes including classes with pistol, combatives mixed with pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    *redline4200,

    Quite true. Thus the range time I put in. I will draw against the drop. Further, I will draw against the drop against multiple mutants. It takes the average guy 1.5 seconds to pull a trigger from when the command to do so is sent by the brain. I know to an absolute certainty that I can draw and fire two rounds into his face in 1.2 seconds without sights.

    .
    problem with your thinking is that if he is already drawing...which is what youre basing your decision to draw on...youve already lost your time advantage and theres a good chance that while youre placing what you believe will be perfect shots on his body he will be placing the same on you...question is...how invincible do you think you are?...

    from the sound of it you may want to spend a little more of your range time on that 1.2 second 2 quick shots on body while moving off the x so you have a better chance of delivering more than you receive...

    kelcarry...i had a similar concern with my shooting and was consistantly low and left when firing relaxed or sighted...when i started training point shooting the convulsive grip cured the problem...lots of dry fire practice with a grip so tight that my hand and arm shake has made for a very stable shooting platform that delivers multiple shots into small groups without sights from half hip...3/4 hip and point shoulder...i am still amazed at the accuracy i am capable of when i am focused....

  13. #57
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    Perhaps I was not clear.

    Drawing against the drop, means that he already has me at gunpoint.

    Normal reaction time is 1.5 seconds.

    I will fire two rounds into his FACE in 1.2 seconds. Slow as that is, he is still dead before he pulls the trigger.

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    Perhaps I was not clear.

    Drawing against the drop, means that he already has me at gunpoint.

    Normal reaction time is 1.5 seconds.

    I will fire two rounds into his FACE in 1.2 seconds. Slow as that is, he is still dead before he pulls the trigger.
    Black Oak,
    If you are talking about the true DATD, you actually have a greater time advantage than you posted. With the parry and the body blading you are off line of the aggressor's weapon in less than .2 seconds.

    Guantes Creator of DATD

  15. #59
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Black Oak, have you actually tried that with airsoft or Sims guns against a live opponent? I do have a little experience in this realm and if you are expecting it to take EVERYONE 1.5 seconds to pull the trigger I think you might be underestimating the adversary. Now while it does get easier if they are within touching distance and you can physically avert and or control their muzzle, if they are not within arm's reach, then this really becomes problematic when we just try to stand and deliver and outdraw them....especially if they have no hesitation about killing you.

    While it MAY take 1.5 seconds for him to realize you are pulling a gun and send the message to his finger ,it may NOT take that long. Not every bad guy out there is a drunk and high crackhead with a chemically slowed down reaction time. He may be faster than you think.And he may well just shoot you if he sees ANY movement of your right shoulder. I would. And my reaction time draw (FROM CONCEALMENT) and shot is UNDER 1 second.It is even faster with the gun already out. Because of that difference in shot speed between just pulling the trigger in response to a visual stimulus and how much time it takes to also draw the pistol , index and fire, standing still and drawing is not my plan A.

    In fact, I can hold a coin on the back of my hand at belt level, drop it, draw a glock 34 from concealment from an IWB holster covered with a closed front cover garment (untucked polo shirt) and fire BEFORE the coin hits the ground. That is faster than most people's ability to process the hand movement . And even then I STILL would not feel comfy trying to just stand and outdraw a drawn gun without getting out of the way first. After all, we do not have "atomic bullets" and the BGs are not going to disappear in a shower of sparks. There are volumes of reports of people soaking up multiple pistol rounds and still being on their feet and functional. So I would not expect 1 or 2 rounds to stop them before they can hit me too...especially at less than 5 yards.


    If the gun is out and in my hand pointed at you,(like in your scenario-drawing against the drop) the shot is fired under .5 of a second. Again, I have tested THAT on a timer. So unless your draw and shot is under that time frame(.5 of a second) AND stops them immediately (which pistol bullets rarely do) then things do not look so good any more. And if you look like you are not cooperating 100% they may very well just preemptively shoot you and get your wallet off your dead body. That really does not give you ANY time to work with. But I have never seen a paper target execute someone who does not do as he is told.....That is why we really need to work this against live adversaries before we make broad declarative statements regarding how long it will take someone to pull a trigger. MIGHT it take 1.5 seconds? It MIGHT. It also MIGHT take .75......or .72 or .67. Suddeny 1.2 doesn't sound so fast anymore. Especially if we agree that pistol bullets rarely immediately physically stop someone. They generally CHOOSE to stop. Not stop IMMEDIATELY because they cannot continue.

    Now, I'm not saying this to start an internet ******* match. I am saying this to hopefully get people who are viewing this thread to actually get out and test what they can do against a LIVE opponent, not just paper and cardboard targets....I have NEVER seen paper shoot back.

    Standing still and shooting it out with the BG at less than 5 yards generally leads to BOTH guys getting hit...a lot. It is essentially "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" with bullets. You will IN MOST CASES get better results moving as you draw and then firing. That way he is at least more likely to miss (or at least miss your vital organs if he does hit you) and blow his OODA loop apart and kick him back to "observe" which buys you more time as he has to now cycle through the orient decide and act phases before he acts again.Just standing there exchanging pistol shots is rarely a good plan (especially when it often takes SEVERAL for them to know they've even been hit). And even if you hit him in the face, he can still pull the trigger convulsively unless you hit his brain stem. Do you really feel THAT confident that you can make a BRAIN STEM shot in less time than he can pull a trigger? I'd want to test that A LOT before that became my "plan A".

    But again, do not take my word for it . test it against a live adversary with Sims guns or airsoft....or even water guns for that matter. We can measure TIME against paper targets...but it is not always the TIME, but the TIMING, and THAT can only be tested against a non cooperative opponent. And if we can get them distracted then yes we MIGHT be able to just outdraw them...but knowing what I know about ballistics involving pistols....I would not count on them stopping before they could get a shot or two off. And that is why getting out from in front of the muzzle is so critical.

    Again, not any kind of attack on you. I just hate to see people formulate a plan that works against assumed times of response and paper targets when the adversary is flesh and blood , has opposing will, and may not realize he is supposed to wait 1.5 seconds before he acts.....
    Last edited by Cruel Hand Luke; June 9th, 2010 at 10:23 PM.
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  16. #60
    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    Well,

    You guys can move around all that you like.

    I am going to stand still and shoot the bad guys in the face, without sites, from 15 yards.

    I think it was Wyatt Earp who said something like, "It is not the fastest, or even the most accurate that wins the gun fight. It is the man who is willing."

    1.2 seconds is pretty slow, but I am only five months recovery from heart valve replacement surgery. I am getting faster every day. I died 9 times on the table. So, 1.2 is pretty fast, coming up from death.

    7677,
    I don't know if the IM went through. It said it didn't a bunch of times and then it said it did.

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