Point Shoot Practice

This is a discussion on Point Shoot Practice within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Find my point shoot practice getting better all the time. I do find that if I point shoot with at least a "leaning" toward my ...

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Thread: Point Shoot Practice

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Point Shoot Practice

    Find my point shoot practice getting better all the time. I do find that if I point shoot with at least a "leaning" toward my dominant eye and even having it as my only sight (other eye closed) , my shots are more accurate. Obviously this is the basis for target-type shooting anyway but is this an OK way of point shooting? I do not find that this changes the amount of time it takes for me to go from holster to firing. Just askin the experts.

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    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    Aim With Your Mind

    Never mind your eyes. Never mind the gun. You do not aim with your eye. You aim with your mind.

    Look at the target. Only the target, both eyes open.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Black Oak: When I look at the target with both eyes open, most of my shots are to the left and a bit low. When I look at the target as I described, the shots are more center mass. I am not "aiming" I am pointing but using my dominant right eye. Your comment about aiming with my mind--being honest and meaning no disrespect--does not make any sense (if I do not answer you directly and honestly I can never appreciate your comment or have an honest dialog). I really want to get to the point (and I am getting closer), where, at what I consider my action distance of 12 ft or less, I can place all my shots within center mass area, which, at least on my body, measures about a 4 inch or less circle. Any further comments are truly appreciated. Again, I'm trying to be honest and straightforward with no disrespect intended.

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    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    I think what he means is not to try to "aim" merely let your body do what it needs to in order to direct the muzzle to where you are focusing on the target.

    Think about a baseball. Does it have "sights"? Of course not, yet baseball players are able to throw the ball pretty much where they want it to go.

    Basketball is the same, no sights, but with proper mechanics you can direct the ball into the hole with great regularity.

    They look where they want it to go, go through the motions and it goes there.

    Pistols work the same way, but it throws the bullet instead of you. You just have to look, point, and press the trigger without jerking it off target.
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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    you may not be concentrating on a particular spot as opposed to the target as a whole....when i lose focus i pull shots...when i focus on the spot i want to hit thats where the shots go...once its engrained in muscle memory it will be automatic and the shots will be placed where you want them...

    are you centered and square to your target or in a weaver type stance?...are you using 2 hands that close or shooting half hip or 3/4 hip?...

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    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    "I think what he means is not to try to "aim" merely let your body do what it needs to in order to direct the muzzle to where you are focusing on the target." - Cruel Hand Luke -

    Exactly.

    You have been pointing your finger at things all your life. The how to do it, is already in your mind. Let your mind aim by pointing your finger at the target. That means that you will come from the draw, to the aim point, with your finger off the trigger, once your finger is pointing at the target, move it to the trigger and fire.

    Your shots being low and left most probably has nothing to do with your eyes. It most likely you tightening your grip on the pistol as you fire.

    Don't try so hard. You already know how to shoot the gun. Relax and let the gun do the work.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey guys: I really appreciate your extremely good answers. I understand what you are saying and will keep up my practice. As far as I am concerned, it is point shooting that is the only thing that makes any sense to me based on the defensive scenario that I perceive to be the most important; CC with my 380 or my 38 and a distance of less than 4 or 5 yards and probably closer to 3. There is no time for sights and lasers etc etc and only point shooting can give me that minimal reaction time. I understand my limitations and the limitations of my firearms (particularly the 380); I also do not see myself discharging my firearm or putting myself in a dangerous situation at more than 15 ft. Thanks again--I really appreciate your comments.

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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey guys: I really appreciate your extremely good answers. I understand what you are saying and will keep up my practice. As far as I am concerned, it is point shooting that is the only thing that makes any sense to me based on the defensive scenario that I perceive to be the most important; CC with my 380 or my 38 and a distance of less than 4 or 5 yards and probably closer to 3. There is no time for sights and lasers etc etc and only point shooting can give me that minimal reaction time. I understand my limitations and the limitations of my firearms (particularly the 380); I also do not see myself discharging my firearm or putting myself in a dangerous situation at more than 15 ft. Thanks again--I really appreciate your comments.
    i participate in idpa and shoot the matches sightless except for the distance targets...but i even try to point them on the first shot if i feel the urge...it doesnt always earn me the highest point scores but it is good practical practice...it works...

    convulsive grip...good trigger control...concentrate on the spot you want to hit...not the whole target...if you can point at something you can shoot it...

    if you have the opportunity to take some training with someone who is profficient in point shooting youll be amzed at what they can bring out of you...you have the skills...you just have to find them and work them...

  10. #9
    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    fwiw-
    i may have learned this the old school way. That is, you start developing muscle memory for accurate presentation by highly repetitive draw /aquisition of sights/trigger excercises. Once you have several thousand of those under your belt you can test yourself facing what you intend to "point at", lock that picture in your mind, close your eyes, then draw and take up the slack in the trigger...then open your eyes. If you have been careful to develop accuracy and repitive accuracy (speed comes later) when you open your eyes you will likely see near perfect sight alignment with the target. Its uncanny. You can even do this with other type of weapon presentations and come up so close as its bizarre. Another way to test your developing of the repetitive motion memory is to go do a low lite night shoot where you can barely make out the outline of the target, let alone see your sites (black them out). Once again, if you have not been cheating you will find that you can shoot groups almost as tight in the dark without seeing the sites on a target you can hardly see the outline of as in full light and scrutiny of the sites.

    SO, for me, point shooting was an outgrowth of building fundamentals first, then point shooting was really a trust excercise that relied instead on freeing the mind to do other things as you had already trained your body to shoot.

    That said, my buddy grew up in Montana never using sights and point shooting as that is how he thought you were supposed to shoot. HE could hit amazing stuff quickly (even from moving trucks on back roads) and simply by pointing any which way, with bizare wrist angles etc. Not my kind of point shooting, but instinctual. Must have a gift as that kind of thing has always been beyond me.
    My point shooting skills I belive are predicated upon repition of basic principles that enable me to shoot by "pointing".

    my $.02
    Last edited by 1980Maico440; June 4th, 2010 at 06:04 PM. Reason: oops

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    Member Array 1980Maico440's Avatar
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    unlike my typing... sorry.

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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    I learned " Point Shooting " in 1968 using the FBI crouch and thrusting the dominate hand towards the target. Then Bill Jordans " No Second Place Winner" came out and on page 56 it showed "the crouch" compaired to Jordan's more upright stance. For the draw,point and shoot this is still one of the best reads and contains some of the best explaination and photographs. To this day nothing points in my hand as well as a S&W k-frame.
    Last edited by Old School; June 5th, 2010 at 08:02 AM.
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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    I go through alot of 22 fnds point shooting, Easy on the wallet. I also use my EDC every range trip, At least a mag or two ; )
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    I learned " Point Shooting " in 1968 using the FBI crouch and thrusting the dominate hand towards the target. Then Bill Jordans " No Second Place Winner" came out and on page 56 it showed "the crouch" compaired to Jordan's more upright stance. For the draw,point and shoot this is still one of the best reads and contains some of the best explaination and photographs. To this day nothing points in my hand as well as a S&W k-frame.

    Ditto to the K frame.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Kelcarry,

    Have you ever been tested for your visual centerline? Not simply which eye is more dominant, but where exactly the center of your binocular (both eyes open) vision is. What you describe sounds like it could be a product of not putting the gun on your visual centerline.

    When I took Roger Phillips' Point Shooting Progressions class he tested for this, and it's not too difficult if you have a partner. Stand facing each other at 4-5 yards (without any sunglasses, you need to be able to see each others' eyes). Have your friend close his non-dominant eye. With both eyes open, you should focus on his dominant eye. Concentrate at it and stare right at the pupil. Hold your shooting arm straight at the low ready position with your thumb sticking up. Bring the thumb up and cover his eye with it. Don't bring it up and adjust, just try to bring it up right on his eye. Do this several times. Your friend, looking through his dominant eye, should observe where your thumb appears to be on your face. It may be anywhere from right on your dominant eye, to the middle of your nose. Hopefully, you'll be consistent in where you bring it up so this will be easy. This is your visual centerline, and it's where you should be lining up the gun when point shooting.
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  16. #15
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    3 things determine the level of deviation control that you need to exercise when breaking a shot.

    1) the target. Is it big, small, or medium. Is it moving? Are you moving? Is it at 100 yards or 2 yards?

    2) Your confidence level. Do you beleive you can hit it--have ya done it 100 times, or is it a new presentation?

    3) Percieved consequence of a miss. Point shoot all ya want on a nice sunny day with a 15' berm behind a cardboard target. When the target has a bunch of grade schoolers holding lab pups and Bibles behind it, you may want another level of deviation control with your shot.

    (THanks Rob)

    "Point Shooting" is what Brian Enos refers to as "Focus Type One". It is suitable for the "no brainer" shots when you need two on target fast anf the target is close and easy. Oddly, like a self defense situation.

    I believe that ya use the level of deviation control required in any given situation, given the 3 factors involved. If you settle on point vs. aimed, you're screwed. Use both.
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

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