Food for thought on knives

Food for thought on knives

This is a discussion on Food for thought on knives within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; not the best vid but not the worst either , posted as food for thought http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...147853&q=knife CAUTION dont watch if you have a weak constitution ...

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Thread: Food for thought on knives

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Food for thought on knives

    not the best vid but not the worst either , posted as food for thought
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...147853&q=knife

    CAUTION dont watch if you have a weak constitution , there are a couple of disturbing pics of kinfe damage in the vid .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.


  2. #2
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    I'll re-emphasize - for the squeemish - the four pics of knife wounds are quite graphic - they are on living folks so we can I hope assume that they get patched up and mend.

    The rest of the vid is most instructive in case anyone thinks they are immune from damage when facing a blade - not so!!!

    One particular item sparked my interest - the police lady trying to draw but too slow. She went straight into a classic two hand hold and finished up pointing the gun at where the assailant had been.

    This IMO brings to light very clearly the essential need to fire from the earliest retention position one handed - clear leather, rotate to point gun and start letting lose - any more time spent taking some ''classic'' posture will be useless. Even this of course would not stop the momentum of the assailant's charge.

    We have been discussing this a lot of late and I think it bears further close consideration - Crash I believe wants to make a short vid of his take on this approach.

    Despite being these days a bit leary of vid link posts here, I personally feel this one has enough instructive content to need seen by people.

    Thx Bob.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As this is tactics mostly - I have moved it to Tactical Training.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #3
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Exellent video depicting what an individual armed with a knife is capable of and the speed with which such an attack can occur. Thanks for posting it.

    Note two recurring tactical errors:

    1. The failure to maintain sufficient distance until the exact nature of the threat can be ascertained.

    2. The failure to integrate movement in any direction into the draw stroke.

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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Also that semi kukri that is being used may not be the latest fad in knives but I made those in years past for very knowledgeable blade wielders. They have incredible slashing power. Nice to see some realistic stuff on blades for a change. Sick of the ice pick approach and defense so often demoed in dojo's.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    np chris i try to only post the good stuff lol ( or at least the thought provoking stuff lol )
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Tough stuff.

    Makes me wonder if dropping to the ground while pulling your gun would help get your vitals further from the BGs reach. Puts you at a disadvantage of escape, but seems like it would be a much better defensive position and would give a couple more seconds. Anyone have comments on this?
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

  7. #7
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Here is an excellent article by Steve Tarani that, while directed more toward law enforcement, addresses many of the issues raised by the video. If you have the opportunity to see Steve with a knife, I can guarantee you will have a new perspective on how lethal a trained individual can be with an edged weapon.

    Suspects with Edged Weapons
    By Steve Tarani

    Zero four hundred hours. Officer Brooks on patrol, flooding a dark figure in the shadows with his alley light calls in his location, gets out of his unit and approaches suspect on foot. "Hey, how's it going, what are you doing out here by the dumpsters at this hour?" Suspect looks around sheepishly, "Oh, I'm just walking home officer." "Well, it's kind of late to be walking around here - I'm going to need to see some identification." The officer closes to within field interview range. "I've got some identification right here!" Suspect lunges across six feet of distance, slashes a razor sharp butter knife at Brooks' throat and takes off running.

    Sound like a scene from a horror flick? Unfortunately, especially as in the case of repeat offenders, bad guys don't play by the rules. "Whatever it takes to get away" is the only rule and edged weapons can make that rule easy to follow.

    What are the ten most common elements of an edged weapon encounter that chiefs need to know about bad guys with edged weapons?

    One - Firearm Access
    "Well, I'll just shoot him! "If it's the case that you can see that bad guy coming and you have determined that his actions have placed you in serious bodily injury or death at contact distance, then this is not a problem. However, the majority of incidents where an officer is seriously injured or even killed are such that the firearm is not readily available to the officer (such as custody or prisons) or you cannot access your firearm in a timely manner at conversational distances.

    Many are aware of the fact that a somewhat athletic male can close the distance of twenty-one feet in under two and a half seconds and that's if you even saw him coming at you. However, the majority of incidents occur at conversational distances or field interview range from six feet or less. At that distance you're looking at about a second and a half at best.

    How many cops do you know (including yourself) that can reach for their firearm, purchase a solid combative grip on the handle, defeat up to three levels of holster retention safeties, clear the firearm from the holster, point the muzzle toward the target, disengage the firearm safety, and successfully place direct hits onto a moving target all under extreme duress and all under a second and a half?

    Best primary defense is to put something in between you and the sharp edge or point of the bad guy, preferably distance or some object like a car door or trash can to buy time. Under these dire circumstances you must create enough time and opportunity to access the appropriate weapon system to defend yourself and control the subject.

    Two - Availability
    An edged weapon can be anything fabricated out of any material capable of inflicting damage to the human body by physical contact. This can include, but is not limited to: screwdrivers, broken beer bottles, a piece of rebar, a steak knife, twisted coat hanger wire, a razor blade, a butter knife, a syringe, a broken picture frame, the edge of a credit card, a nail, a broken piece of glass, the claw of a hammer, fingernails, a comb, or a fingernail clipper.

    More often than not a perp should always be suspected of carrying some type of implement, which if needed, could be readily deployed in the event of an emergency escape. Rather than an expensive high tech combat folder, a cop should be wary of the possibility of some cheap and common improvised edged weapon - especially if you're working prisons or custody.

    Keep a wary eye when engaging a suspect at conversational distances. Remember it's the hands that kill. What objects are near to his hands? Have him move away from anything that may appear accessible and could potentially be used as a contact weapon.

    Three - Carry
    The issue of carry is an important one especially when considering edged weapons as the first element of surprise begins when you may not even know he's carrying an edged weapon on his person.

    Where should a cop be looking for carry of an edged weapon? The real answer is anywhere the bad guy can think of to suit his intentions. Generally those intentions are not to invite you over for coffee and donuts with his friends. However, there are a few common carry locations on the body and in the clothing to NOT overlook. Here are five of the most common:

    Pockets - look for the obvious on the inside or outside in the front, rear, cargo pockets, sewn in to the pants, shirt pockets or even baseball cap.

    Belt or waistband - Ask him to turn around and look in the front, along the sides and in the back or in front or behind both the belt and the waistband. In some cases it may even be underneath the pants behind both belt and waste band.

    Head or around the neck - look for straps or clips attached to the back, front and under the sleeves of the shirt at either the shoulders or the wrists. Especially a front slung or rear slung neck knife. Boots and shoes - Check the tips of his boots and ask to him to raise the pant legs to check for boot knives attached to the top of the boot or shoe. In some cases, if you get that feeling, then ask him to remove his shoes as sometimes edged weapons are just placed inside without any clips or clasps to hold them in place. Taped to the body - Look for unnatural bulges located on front or back of the arms, the belly, the back and even legs and buttocks.

    Four - Deployment
    The second element of surprise (after carry location) is deployment of an edged weapon. Bad guys can't cut you or stab you if they can't deploy their edged weapon. In the case of an incident in New York, a suspect grabbed the bill of his baseball cap, slapped the officer across the face a couple times with his hat and took off running. It wasn't for a few moments until that the officer realized he was bleeding profusely from razor blade cuts. The perp had sewn shaving razors into the edges of his cap and simply deployed his edged weapon by using his visor as the handle.

    In addition to the classical reach behind the back or from the waist or reaching for the boot dagger, other more improvised methods of deployment can include spitting a razor into your face, reaching behind the head with both hands raised high in a phony surrendering posture to unclip an edged weapon from the back of his neck and let's not forget that he may have already had something in his hand before you even stopped him - and its still there. Although we understand "it's the hands that kill" even if his hands are on the top of his head doesn't mean that you're safe.

    Five - Operation
    There are several methods of operation you can expect of an edged weapon. They vary in movement of the edged or tip in scraping, slashing, thrusting, hacking and any combination of these. All are nasty and capable of delivering lethal and debilitating payloads upon contact with bare flesh. Of these the thrust has been documented as the most lethal as more deaths are caused by thrusts than by hacks, slashes or scrapes.

    The ancient military chronicler Flavius Vegetus Renetus indicated in his documentation of the battles of the ancient Roman armies that the thrust of a gladius (Roman sword) need only penetrate the length of a man's hand to take a life. This was later confirmed by the great Italian fencing master Giacomo DiGrassi in the late 16th century "a blade need only penetrate the length of a man's four fingers" to effectively snuff the life of his adversary.

    Slashes, hacks and scrapes may look ugly and do substantial damage, but thrusts with an edged weapon can kill you more readily than any other type of operation. Statistically, more deaths on the street have occurred by puncture wounds to the body as a result of thrusts from a screwdriver.

    Six - Contact Connection
    The "Contact Connection" is defined as any physical connection beginning from the opponent to the contact weapon and from the contact weapon to the officer in order for that weapon to be effective. The edged weapon is a contact weapon and in order for it to do any damage it must make contact with the body. There must be an unbroken physical connection from the opponent to his weapon to you in order for his weapon to be effective. The key to surviving an edged weapon attack is to always control this contact connection.

    Since there are so many different ways to operate a contact weapon (slash, hack, thrust and any combination thereof) it would be impossible to learn a technique for every single method. However, it is possible to retain tried and true methods of "breaking the contact connection." This task is achieved via a series of concepts designed for law enforcement professionals, which include identification of the contact connection, control of the contact connection and the ever-important decision to "Get outside" or "Go in" on the attacker.

    Seven - Range of Engagement
    There are basically only two ranges of engagement in an edged weapon encounter. The first is the distance at which you cannot be contacted by the edged weapon. If he cannot reach you, then he cannot make connection. This distance is commonly known as non-contact range. At non-contact Range you have the time to employ your legs for mobility and as a result have no need to use your hands to break the contact connection. It is imperative to mobilize in such a manner as to maintain a break in the contact connection, move to safe distance and take advantage of superior position. This may also translate to cover and concealment based on your situation.

    The second distance is that in which you are well within range of a contact connection with his edged weapon. This is known as "contact range." At this point in the game you must either "Get In" (get in and try and control his weapon arm or otherwise stifle his attack) or "Get out" to non-contact range, break the contact connection and gain immediate control of the situation from a safe distance.

    Eight - Exposed Targets
    The term "frozen foot syndrome" is applied to the physiological response or initial startled reflex where both feet are instantly immobilized - frozen to the deck. Sometimes referred to as the "Startled Reaction Stance", this natural human reaction can slow your reaction time down considerably in high-stress situations. However, there are a couple of things you can do to get closer to the reaction power curve.

    Don't leave your hands dangling by your side. Bring them both in close to your body as if you were going for something on your belt. Don't get your fingers hacked off by dangling them in front of the bad guy - ten easy to hit targets tantalizing his edged weapon. Optimally, try and get them up to cover your throat and neck. Turn or blade your body in such a manner as to reduce the size of available target area, that is, your body. Stay mobile. Move to a better position. A moving target is much more difficult to hit than a stationary target.

    Nine - Centerline
    One of the most important elements of an edged weapon encounter that chiefs need to know about bad guys with edged weapons is centerline. Also known as the center mass to most DT instructors, this is that imaginary line that can be drawn connecting from between the eyebrows straight down to the groin area. It is the imaginary line where all your vital organs can be located. The throat, heart, liver, spleen and testicles are all aligned along the centerline. Hits along the centerline can stop you dead. This is why firearms instructors train their students to hit center mass.

    Our proverbial bad guy doesn't want your fingers or to give you a haircut or to nick your elbows. His intention is to inflict serious bodily damage and even death. This can only be achieved by scoring a penetrating strike to the centerline. If he hits your hand, wrist or forearm, you've got some time to apply pressure and tie off the bleeding. But, if he nails your heart, lungs, liver, spleen, kidneys or trachea, you've got bigger problems. The bottom line is to protect your centerline.

    Ten - Superior Position
    The "inside" position is where you find yourself in that area facing your opponent where you end up between both of his arms. The disadvantage of this position is that he has access to you at contact range with both his hands, elbows, knees, both feet and possibly a head butt.

    The "outside" position is where you find yourself in that area facing your opponent where you end up directly on the outside of his attacking weapon including his striking hands and /or striking feet. The advantage of this position is that he has no immediate access to you at contact range with his knife or forward aggressive movement. Additionally you are not exposed to as potential a threat from his opposite hand, elbows, knees, both feet and possibly a head butt. There are no disadvantages to this position and is the best to end up if ever you find yourself in a self-defense situation.

    One other distinct advantage of this position is that your moving around on the outside forces him to follow your movement. It is always the case that reaction is always slower than action. Thus you end up taking control of any situation at that point where you take control of the outside and force his reactions to your actions. This concept is the same as the classical military objective of outflanking your opponent.

    An interesting observation about the outside position, especially with regards to edged weapon defense is that if you look down on the body from above more than 75% of positional area belongs to the outside. The trick is to deftly maneuver from the inside position past the edged weapon to get to all that open area on the outside.

    Remember that the ultimate goal in any edged weapons altercation is to safely defend your centerline and to gain immediate control of the situation. Whether that means defending center mass by turning yourself into a moving target (as opposed to a stationary target) or placing something between your centerline and harms way - even lots of distance - the outcome is the same. No fancy martial arts moves. No trick shooter fast draws under pressure, simply break the contact connection, get to the outside and get the situation under control as quickly and as safely as possible.

  8. #8
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Copperknight
    Makes me wonder if dropping to the ground while pulling your gun would help get your vitals further from the BGs reach. Puts you at a disadvantage of escape, but seems like it would be a much better defensive position and would give a couple more seconds. Anyone have comments on this?
    I have seen this method taught two ways and have experimented with both in FOF scenarios. The first involved falling back, planting the feet firmly on the ground and shooting between the knees. The second involved falling back, delivering a series of strikes with the feet to keep the attacker at a distance, and then tucking the feet in when shooting.

    Here are my recollections regarding both:

    1. Falling back is not a natural response to an attack. Individuals were able to perform either technique in response to an expected attack (i.e. when it was performed as a drill) but were unable to do so when attacks occurred spontaneously (i.e. Scenario-based force on force).

    2. Unless the attacker knew that this was a potential response, he was surprised. That surprise often generated sufficient time for the defender to "ventilate" his attacker 3 or 4 times.

    3. Situational awareness/falling properly was critical. In the training area, two individuals struck their head on the wall when falling backward. When we moved to the parking lot (yes, we are masochists ), one individual "rang his own bell" pretty good when the back of his head connected with the pavement. (I considered this a key learning point as I have been told knocking oneself senseless when confronted by a knife-wielding assailant is considered rude in many parts of the world. )

    4. The was at least one occurance using both techniques where an individual "shot" (using simunitions) himself in the lower extremitites. (I have it on good athority that this is also frowned upon in many cultures ) To be fair, we performed probably in excess of 100 repetitions and this only happened perhaps two or three times. But it still happened.

    5. Once you were on the ground, you were there for the duration. Situational awareness was generally limited behind/above the shooter. That made for exciting times when the assailant's buddy suddenly appeared. The ability to perform speed reloads while supine and the engagement of targets "overhead" is perishable.

    6. As you mentioned, mobility was virtually non-existant with either method.

    7. With the bicycling method, the defender frequently sustained what I am told were serious, if not devasting wounds to the lower extremities. Opinions were that in virtually every case, he would have been unable to walk due to the wounds. The was a discussion as to how much protection footwear might provide. (Think motorcycle boots vs. Tevas.)

    8. As training progressed with the "feet planted" method, attackers began using what became known as the "Kamikaze Death Dive(I told you we were masochists )" using their momentum to carry them thru the hail of sim rounds and diving/falling through the defenders legs, using their weight to drive the knife into the defender's torso. While an unlikely attack, defenses revolved around getting your feet up to defeat the fall/dive, arguing for the "Bicycle method."

    Based on my experience/observations this is not my first choice of a response to a knife attack.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6
    Based on my experience/observations this is not my first choice of a response to a knife attack.
    Y'know, I would agree with you. Falling down is against the natural reaction of keeping your balance and staying on your feet. Probably would require a decent amount of training, and I'm not sure you would want to train yourself to fall at the sight of a knife since you do tend to revert to training in times of panic/stress.

    However, it would be an option to keep in mind and possibly practice on occasion. Like you said it's a surprise move to the attacker that may give you a couple extra seconds.

    As for injuries sustained preventing walking, that would be a bad thing. But losing the use of an arm in the middle of a fight might be worse.

    Just something to keep in mind while training. Maybe do some drop and shoot personal training. Although with the chance of losing a kneecap downrange, better keep the training low key.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Regarding Falling Down...

    In my police training, one tactic we trained to do when approaching a vehicle and being surprised by a gun was to fall backward drawing your weapon and fire in to the door of the vehicle.

    I suppose that when you have no distance, a similar advantage could be gained by falling backward if like has been said, you practice it.

    In the vehicle example though, the shooter is behind the closed door of his vehicle and his movement/vision is restricted. Not so with the knife attacker who is free to move at will!

    This would be a good tactic to try in a training scenario to see if it has any value!

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    different situation but i once took a shot by going to kneeling to clear downrange issues ( if you lower yourself and your firearm then any exit trajectory should go over the downrange innocents/issues on a headshot . in my experiance this works if you dont screw arround on the shot )
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper
    In my police training, one tactic we trained to do when approaching a vehicle and being surprised by a gun was to fall backward drawing your weapon and fire in to the door of the vehicle.
    They trained you to fall back if you were surprised by a gun during a traffic stop?! Would you not be falling into traffic?

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    Two things to remember from this.....

    1) MOVE when attacked. While you're drawing your weapon you should also be moving! Direction to move will be dictated by the situation.

    2) NEVER under-estimate a knife. A knife is always loaded & has unlimited firing ability. The only defense is DISTANCE.

    as a side note:

    Consider getting trained on the use of edged weapons. In today's world, there are places you can't have firearm, but you can have a knife. This discipline also teaches you how to disarm a BG who has a knife. When I travel out of the US, I can't have a firearm, but I always have a knife or knives.

    In some situations a knife could be an advantage. If you are at arms reach from an assailant your firearm may be rendered useless by the BG. He could grab the barrel & push it off target, out of battery or worse case, get it away from you. A knife in your hand is harder to deal with at arms length. If BG tries to grab it, all he gets is handful of blade!

    the last thing to remember in a knife fight.....everybody gets cut!
    Last edited by goawayfarm; July 5th, 2006 at 07:12 PM.
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    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Food for thought, indeed.

    Sobering.

    Run or fall, depending on your options, I guess. And you've got to make the decision quick.

    Not a pretty picture.

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    Neither!

    Running and falling both provide Severe consequences. By running, you turn your back and thus provide the stage for a devestating attack. By falling you not only limit your range of motion severely, but you make it easier for a knife wielding attacker to get on top and control you. You really want them as close as possible (tight to the body) so you can control them. Unless you're running a 4.1 in the 40yard dash, I wouldn't recommend running.

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